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First Base

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Offline  Re: First Base
#41

Posted: September 05, 2017, 3:28 PM Post
Posts: 2829
Santana tried to play some 1B in the Astros system and was an epic failure at it. Just looking at how he moves in RF I can see that.... not sure we want to see Domingo fielding ground bals or trying to scoop anything.... Braun's failures at 3B was mostly due to throwing. He can probably play 1B

The David Stearns era: Controllable Young Talent. Watch the Jedi work his magic!


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Offline  Re: First Base
#42

Posted: September 05, 2017, 8:50 PM Post
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I think we all would love Braun or Santana to play first. It gets brought up multiple times a day here. Since it hasn't happened yet I doubt it happens ever.


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Offline  Re: First Base
#43

Posted: September 06, 2017, 1:43 AM Post
Posts: 259
jerichoholicninja said:
I think we all would love Braun or Santana to play first. It gets brought up multiple times a day here. Since it hasn't happened yet I doubt it happens ever.



I'm not really tracking that logic. We've never had an abundance of OF depth before and it's also fairly common for power hitters to move from the OF to 1st base as they age. Santana's 24 years old and Braun is starting to age, but we finally had viable 1st base options.

I think the reason it wouldn't happen(especially with regard to Braun) would be more because of what we have at 1st base rather than any trepidation to move him.

And with regard Santana will improve a little bit in RF. It shouldn't be that hard with his athletic ability. He makes some nice plays out there. So at 24 I wouldn't write him off as being a career abyss defensively in the OF.


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Offline  Re: First Base
#44

Posted: September 06, 2017, 7:14 AM Post
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OnTheBlack said:
jerichoholicninja said:
I think we all would love Braun or Santana to play first. It gets brought up multiple times a day here. Since it hasn't happened yet I doubt it happens ever.



I'm not really tracking that logic. We've never had an abundance of OF depth before and it's also fairly common for power hitters to move from the OF to 1st base as they age. Santana's 24 years old and Braun is starting to age, but we finally had viable 1st base options.

I think the reason it wouldn't happen(especially with regard to Braun) would be more because of what we have at 1st base rather than any trepidation to move him.

And with regard Santana will improve a little bit in RF. It shouldn't be that hard with his athletic ability. He makes some nice plays out there. So at 24 I wouldn't write him off as being a career abyss defensively in the OF.


1B has been a black hole for years and Braun has never really been a good OF. If there was any chance of him playing there, they would have tried by now. Someone before posted that the Astros tried Santana at first at it was a disaster. Stearns would have been there at the time and knows it's not going to work.


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Offline  Re: First Base
#45

Posted: September 06, 2017, 7:45 AM Post
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Posts: 66
jerichoholicninja said:
OnTheBlack said:
jerichoholicninja said:
I think we all would love Braun or Santana to play first. It gets brought up multiple times a day here. Since it hasn't happened yet I doubt it happens ever.



I'm not really tracking that logic. We've never had an abundance of OF depth before and it's also fairly common for power hitters to move from the OF to 1st base as they age. Santana's 24 years old and Braun is starting to age, but we finally had viable 1st base options.

I think the reason it wouldn't happen(especially with regard to Braun) would be more because of what we have at 1st base rather than any trepidation to move him.

And with regard Santana will improve a little bit in RF. It shouldn't be that hard with his athletic ability. He makes some nice plays out there. So at 24 I wouldn't write him off as being a career abyss defensively in the OF.


1B has been a black hole for years and Braun has never really been a good OF. If there was any chance of him playing there, they would have tried by now. Someone before posted that the Astros tried Santana at first at it was a disaster. Stearns would have been there at the time and knows it's not going to work.


I wouldn't say it's been a black hole. More of a revolving door. Carter hit a lot of HRs last year, but that was about it. Lind was solid, if unspectacular in 2015. Reynolds was a whiff machine in 2014, but did hit 22 HRs and played good defense. The 2013 Fransisco/Betancourt combo was frightening. Hart was good there in 2012.

Hopefully one of Thames/Aguilar take the bull by the horns and lock down the position for the next several seasons. I don't see Braun or Santana moving there anytime soon.


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Offline  Re: First Base
#46

Posted: September 06, 2017, 9:29 AM Post
Posts: 10644
The fact that Neil Walker has been playing a lot of first base down the stretch tells me the luster is off Thames and that they could be looking elsewhere once again. Thames has been less productive than Carter was last year. Thames has 28 HR and 54 RBI with the season almost over. Carter had 41 and 94. Clearly Carter was doing more than just hitting HR too. He was hitting them with men on base. He had 27 doubles to 21 for Carter and walked 76 times.

They could go the cheap route next year with a soft platoon partner to go with Aguilar, say Adam Lind? Thames might not be all that easy to move though even with his modest contract.


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Offline  Re: First Base
#47

Posted: September 06, 2017, 10:22 AM Post
Posts: 2047
JohnBriggs12 said:
The fact that Neil Walker has been playing a lot of first base down the stretch tells me the luster is off Thames and that they could be looking elsewhere once again. Thames has been less productive than Carter was last year. Thames has 28 HR and 54 RBI with the season almost over. Carter had 41 and 94. Clearly Carter was doing more than just hitting HR too. He was hitting them with men on base. He had 27 doubles to 21 for Carter and walked 76 times.


It would be nice if you didn't always use counting stats to make an argument, but since you did. Thames has 66 walks in 150 less plate appearances, so those are probably about even.

Yes, he has 21 doubles to Carters 27...but he also has 4 triples to Carters 1. All of this is in 150 less plate appearances. To say that Thames is less productive than Carter last year is wrong in my opinion. Carter did bash a lot more home runs and drove in more runners, but is that Thames' fault that he had a black hole hitting in front of him for much of the year(Villar), especially in his hot April? Also, he was batting 2nd much of the year. So, he had Arcia(before he started hitting well),the pitcher, and Villar in front of him most of the time.

So please, do not use RBI as a way to judge a players worth.


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Offline  Re: First Base
#48

Posted: September 06, 2017, 10:37 AM Post
Posts: 5736
I have no problem with someone using RBI to judge a player. Personally, I don't consider RBI, but won't tell another poster what's important to them.

Lind, Carter, Thames/Aguilar results were similar enough not to squabble about. All were serviceable. Big question is what to expect from Thames in 2018. I can see Aguilar more or less having the same season he had this year, as long as he isn't playing every day. But Thames, just hard to predict.

I'm open to anything at 1B. If they want to roll with that platoon again and hope for the best, I can see that. At the same time, I can see them trading or cutting Thames if they find a better option. It's such a close call I would be fine either way.


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Offline  Re: First Base
#49

Posted: September 06, 2017, 10:57 AM Post
Posts: 2047
FVBrewerFan said:
I have no problem with someone using RBI to judge a player. Personally, I don't consider RBI, but won't tell another poster what's important to them.

Lind, Carter, Thames/Aguilar results were similar enough not to squabble about. All were serviceable. Big question is what to expect from Thames in 2018. I can see Aguilar more or less having the same season he had this year, as long as he isn't playing every day. But Thames, just hard to predict.

I'm open to anything at 1B. If they want to roll with that platoon again and hope for the best, I can see that. At the same time, I can see them trading or cutting Thames if they find a better option. It's such a close call I would be fine either way.


I didn't say RBI shouldn't be important to any one person, but I think it has been shown time and time again that using RBI to compare one player to another is a pretty poor way to do so. No? Maybe using the word judge was wrong, but to compare two players seems silly.


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Offline  Re: First Base
#50

Posted: September 06, 2017, 10:57 AM Post
Posts: 182
What I'd probably do is trade Thames if there's a decent offer to be had; I'm fine with that being lower-minors lottery tickets. Use Aguilar as the primary 1B; he's shown enough in limited playing time to warrant being given a chance IMO. If anything I think playing (mostly) every day would see his numbers improve. I'd look at replacing him on the roster ideally not with a pure 1B, but with someone with more flexibility. One way to get a platoon option is to sign a player who can play 3rd, so that Shaw can play 1B when a lefty is needed. Extending Neil Walker could be an option.

That being said, I don't consider it the most urgent spot to upgrade. If there isn't any interest in Thames, or any appealing replacements out there, then sticking with Thames/Aguilar platoon for 2018 is fine by me. See how Gatewood and Erceg come along, and make a decision when we know more about what we have in terms of 1B/3B coming through.

As for FAs there's not really much out there beyond Hosmer and Duda. No idea what they'd cost, but I wouldn't mind having some more plate dicipline in the lineup in Hosmer. 16% K, 8% BB for his career. Again, very much demands on what kind of contract, and what length of contract, he'd demand. I suspect it'd be more than we'd like to pay, but at least worth exploring.


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Offline  Re: First Base
#51

Posted: September 06, 2017, 7:46 PM Post
Posts: 10644
jerichoholicninja said:
I think we all would love Braun or Santana to play first. It gets brought up multiple times a day here. Since it hasn't happened yet I doubt it happens ever.


Santana's problems on defense aren't physical. Way too many balls fall in front of him due to halfhearted effort. That won't change if he's moved to first. He'd be a statue there. Just leave him where he is.


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Offline  Re: First Base
#52

Posted: September 06, 2017, 9:50 PM Post
Posts: 470
just bring the DH to the only place it isn't - the National League.
Problem solved...


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Offline  Re: First Base
#53

Posted: September 07, 2017, 6:42 PM Post
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MadThinker88 said:
just bring the DH to the only place it isn't - the National League.
Problem solved...


Not really. We'd still be left with multiple players who should never put on a glove.


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Offline  Re: First Base
#54

Posted: September 08, 2017, 6:56 AM Post
Posts: 3034
stoutdude04 said:
JohnBriggs12 said:
The fact that Neil Walker has been playing a lot of first base down the stretch tells me the luster is off Thames and that they could be looking elsewhere once again. Thames has been less productive than Carter was last year. Thames has 28 HR and 54 RBI with the season almost over. Carter had 41 and 94. Clearly Carter was doing more than just hitting HR too. He was hitting them with men on base. He had 27 doubles to 21 for Carter and walked 76 times.


It would be nice if you didn't always use counting stats to make an argument, but since you did. Thames has 66 walks in 150 less plate appearances, so those are probably about even.

Yes, he has 21 doubles to Carters 27...but he also has 4 triples to Carters 1. All of this is in 150 less plate appearances. To say that Thames is less productive than Carter last year is wrong in my opinion. Carter did bash a lot more home runs and drove in more runners, but is that Thames' fault that he had a black hole hitting in front of him for much of the year(Villar), especially in his hot April? Also, he was batting 2nd much of the year. So, he had Arcia(before he started hitting well),the pitcher, and Villar in front of him most of the time.

So please, do not use RBI as a way to judge a players worth.


Thames has also been batting 1st or second in the lineup for 98 of the 108 games he has started. With Villar's struggles this season, plus Arcia and the pitcher batting 8-9, I'm not surprised he's got a relatively low RBI-to-HR ratio. Nobody's on base when he connects.


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Offline  Re: First Base
#55

Posted: September 08, 2017, 8:35 AM Post
Posts: 10644
clancyphile said:
stoutdude04 said:
JohnBriggs12 said:
The fact that Neil Walker has been playing a lot of first base down the stretch tells me the luster is off Thames and that they could be looking elsewhere once again. Thames has been less productive than Carter was last year. Thames has 28 HR and 54 RBI with the season almost over. Carter had 41 and 94. Clearly Carter was doing more than just hitting HR too. He was hitting them with men on base. He had 27 doubles to 21 for Carter and walked 76 times.


It would be nice if you didn't always use counting stats to make an argument, but since you did. Thames has 66 walks in 150 less plate appearances, so those are probably about even.

Yes, he has 21 doubles to Carters 27...but he also has 4 triples to Carters 1. All of this is in 150 less plate appearances. To say that Thames is less productive than Carter last year is wrong in my opinion. Carter did bash a lot more home runs and drove in more runners, but is that Thames' fault that he had a black hole hitting in front of him for much of the year(Villar), especially in his hot April? Also, he was batting 2nd much of the year. So, he had Arcia(before he started hitting well),the pitcher, and Villar in front of him most of the time.

So please, do not use RBI as a way to judge a players worth.


Thames has also been batting 1st or second in the lineup for 98 of the 108 games he has started. With Villar's struggles this season, plus Arcia and the pitcher batting 8-9, I'm not surprised he's got a relatively low RBI-to-HR ratio. Nobody's on base when he connects.


He's had 200 plate appearances with men on base, 112 with men in scoring position. He's hit 10 HR with men on, 9 of those with just one man on. He's batting .149 with RISP. Of his 28 HR, he has one 3 run HR, 9 2 run HR and 18 solo shots. Carter had 301 PA with men on, and hit 18 of his HR in those situations including one grand slam and 4 3 run HR. So while it's true Thames' opportunities have been somewhat limited, he's been awful in RBI opportunities that he has had.


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Offline  Re: First Base
#56

Posted: September 08, 2017, 8:39 AM Post
Posts: 426
Location: Madison, WI
No question Thames has some value. But last year Scooter Gennett had some value too and the Brewers were unable to trade him. Even though his contract is very reasonable, who would want Thames? He is terrible in the outfield so he is limited to 1B/DH, and while the .348 OBP and 28 home runs looks great on paper I'm not really sure his bat "plays up" at either of those spots. I think the return would be pretty minimal...probably so minimal that it would probably be better for the Brewers to keep him and hope he can repeat the .348 OBP and 28 home runs.

About the only teams that I see that would have any interest in Thames are Kansas City and Seattle. And Kansas City's interest would be dependent on Hosmer leaving.

If the Brewers just go with a straight first base platoon right out of the gate with Thames and Aguilar it might be the best move:
Thames against righties = .251/.369/.532/.901
Aguilar against lefties = .321/.383/.548/.931
Neither player has been very good lately but the entire sample size from 2017 indicates it could be a productive duo. Looking at the season statistics, 1B for the Brewers has an .885 OPS (9th best in MLB), .347 OBP (15th best in MLB), .538 SLG (8th best in MLB). It's frustrating that these guys have been bad lately, but they've been good enough where the Brewers shouldn't be looking to dump either of them for next to nothing. I'd be willing to give them another shot and work on areas like 2B/CF OBP, finding an insurance starter (not named Matt Garza!) and adding 3 different relievers to the bullpen.


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Offline  Re: First Base
#57

Posted: September 08, 2017, 9:52 AM Post
Posts: 3529
I'd hold on to both Thames/Aguilar. It's a cheap, productive 1b option as those numbers above ^ indicate. Being mid-pack for 1b with these guys is really awesome. #1 and 2 at the position are arguable best bats in all of baseball. 2 more are well within top 15 consideration and a new 5th in Bellinger may be jumping in the top 15 conversation.

You're not getting these guys, those 5 teams are spoiled for years to come. There are questionable seasons by the likes of Zimmerman, Morrison, Smoak, and even Hosmer that I'd question being followed up on in any of the next 3years. So now you are approaching the top 10 for under 7mil and top 5 not elite 1b.

Let's see Thames have an offseason to heal and work on things before just ditching him as a bad 1b. The Travis Shaw part exists if you do move on with someone anew to play 3b.

I just find it amazing how people can't be pleased with a result middle of all in baseball. I'm sorry we aren't playing some MLB Show game where you trade for the best players at every position. If we were just 6games worse in the standings approximately what Thames may have been responsible for winning with his April and B2B GWs vs Cincy, are we even discussing this so hard?

At this point, I'd guess if we posted Thames numbers before the season for the cost, the majority here would have been happy with them for the 1st year.


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