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Lorenzo Cain

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Offline  Re: Lorenzo Cain
Posted: January 12, 2018, 9:10 AM Post
Posts: 10914
Eye Black at Night said:
In Rosenthal’s most recent article via The Athletic he reiterates that according to his sources the Brewers are maintaining their interest in Lorenzo Cain (but also notes they are exploring several trade and FA options).

Rosenthal then shifts gears into what would be best categorized as pure speculation. He speculates that Brett Phillips could be involved in a trade to bring back either pitching or a 2B. He throws out the idea that when facing LHP the Brewers could have an outfield of Cain in LF, Brinson eventually in CF, with Domingo Santana in RF. In this scenario he says Braun could move to 1B, but admits Braun playing on the infield corner might be “too outside the box”.


Unless Aguilar gets dealt, I don't see that happening. I also don't see Phillips as part of a deal at this point. They made a huge deal out of lineup balance, and Phillips is their lone LH outfield bat. Now if they sign Walker, then yeah it's possible I suppose but I'd prefer an OF of Braun, Cain, Phillips and Brinson to mix and match. If you're ok dealing Phillips, then why not Brinson if that's what it takes for the pitcher that will make a difference, especially if you sign Cain? An OF of Braun, Cain, Santana and Phillips? In the short term that just might be the most potent group they could have.


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Online  Re: Lorenzo Cain
Posted: January 12, 2018, 9:13 AM Post
Posts: 1035
Location: New Berlin, WI
Eye Black at Night said:
In Rosenthal’s most recent article via The Athletic he reiterates that according to his sources the Brewers are maintaining their interest in Lorenzo Cain (but also notes they are exploring several trade and FA options).

Rosenthal then shifts gears into what would be best categorized as pure speculation. He speculates that Brett Phillips could be involved in a trade to bring back either pitching or a 2B. He throws out the idea that when facing LHP the Brewers could have an outfield of Cain in LF, Brinson eventually in CF, with Domingo Santana in RF. In this scenario he says Braun could move to 1B, but admits Braun playing on the infield corner might be “too outside the box”.


Thanks for posting. I find the insights a bit unusual, why would he specifically point out how our 4 RH hitting outfielders could line up against a left handed pitcher? That's the easy part, the more difficult part is...we have 4 RH hitting outfielders in this scenario and there are far more RH than LH pitchers. Maybe the Brewers are ok with an all RH outfield with LH 1b, 3b, and 2b position(Sogard LH, Walker/Villar are switch that hit better LH). I honestly thought Phillips would be the least likely to move aside from Braun, even less likely than Brinson.

We are almost exactly 1 month from pitchers and catchers reporting, the longer this goes...the more likely for a flurry of activity in a very short time span. Waiting is boring...


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Online  Re: Lorenzo Cain
Posted: January 12, 2018, 9:18 AM Post
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Here is my Brewer pessimism... We trade Phillips and he goes on to a great career and fan favorite elsewhere. Meanwhile we have Brinson who can barely stay healthy enough to play 100 games a season and his value slowly diminishes to a bag of balls.

“There's a fine line between being confident and cocky, or overconfident. This is an extremely humbling game. But if you don't believe in yourself, no one else is going to believe in you.”


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Offline  Re: Lorenzo Cain
Posted: January 12, 2018, 9:54 AM Post
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I'd rather see Brinson moved than Phillips. I agree with the post directly above from Brew4U. *sigh*


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Online  Re: Lorenzo Cain
Posted: January 12, 2018, 9:56 AM Post
Posts: 1035
Location: New Berlin, WI
Brew4U said:
Here is my Brewer pessimism... We trade Phillips and he goes on to a great career and fan favorite elsewhere. Meanwhile we have Brinson who can barely stay healthy enough to play 100 games a season and his value slowly diminishes to a bag of balls.


It is probably more likely that Brinson is an allstar and Phillips is a solid regular than your pessimistic viewpoint.


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Online  Re: Lorenzo Cain
Posted: January 12, 2018, 10:04 AM Post
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KeithStone53151 said:
Brew4U said:
Here is my Brewer pessimism... We trade Phillips and he goes on to a great career and fan favorite elsewhere. Meanwhile we have Brinson who can barely stay healthy enough to play 100 games a season and his value slowly diminishes to a bag of balls.


It is probably more likely that Brinson is an allstar and Phillips is a solid regular than your pessimistic viewpoint.


Hope so. I really do. I just don't have a very good feeling about Brinson.

“There's a fine line between being confident and cocky, or overconfident. This is an extremely humbling game. But if you don't believe in yourself, no one else is going to believe in you.”


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Offline  Re: Lorenzo Cain
Posted: January 12, 2018, 10:46 AM Post
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Until Brinson can play a full season, relatively healthy, I just don't have any confidence in the guy. Seems like a career full of 100 or less game seasons to me.


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Offline  Re: Lorenzo Cain
Posted: January 12, 2018, 12:50 PM Post
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I think Brinson's status as a highly ranked prospect makes his value at its pinnacle. Use our system to acquire a top of the rotation guy if you can David.


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Offline  Re: Lorenzo Cain
Posted: January 12, 2018, 1:07 PM Post
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turborickey said:
Until Brinson can play a full season, relatively healthy, I just don't have any confidence in the guy. Seems like a career full of 100 or less game seasons to me.


I'm curious if you have similar feelings toward Luis Ortiz.

Ortiz has been injured at some point each year since being drafted & was even hurt during senior year of high school before being drafted. He has yet to throw 100 IP in any of his 4 seasons of professional ball. Still people think of him as a mid-rotation starting pitcher.


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Online  Re: Lorenzo Cain
Posted: January 12, 2018, 1:18 PM Post
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MadThinker88 said:
turborickey said:
Until Brinson can play a full season, relatively healthy, I just don't have any confidence in the guy. Seems like a career full of 100 or less game seasons to me.


I'm curious if you have similar feelings toward Luis Ortiz.

Ortiz has been injured at some point each year since being drafted & was even hurt during senior year of high school before being drafted. He has yet to throw 100 IP in any of his 4 seasons of professional ball. Still people think of him as a mid-rotation starting pitcher.


I know I do. How could that not be a red flag?

“There's a fine line between being confident and cocky, or overconfident. This is an extremely humbling game. But if you don't believe in yourself, no one else is going to believe in you.”


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Offline  Re: Lorenzo Cain
Posted: January 12, 2018, 1:19 PM Post
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MadThinker88 said:
turborickey said:
Until Brinson can play a full season, relatively healthy, I just don't have any confidence in the guy. Seems like a career full of 100 or less game seasons to me.


I'm curious if you have similar feelings toward Luis Ortiz.

Ortiz has been injured at some point each year since being drafted & was even hurt during senior year of high school before being drafted. He has yet to throw 100 IP in any of his 4 seasons of professional ball. Still people think of him as a mid-rotation starting pitcher.


Yup, sure do... How can that not be a legit concern?


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Online  Re: Lorenzo Cain
Posted: January 12, 2018, 1:42 PM Post
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turborickey said:

Yup, sure do... How can that not be a legit concern?


Yeah, I was a little stumped by the poster that pointed out injury concerns with Ortiz too. This is a big year for both Brinson and Ortiz. If either of them misses significant time again this season, it really is going to hamper their value as well as their chances for continued growth. Maybe it is a perfect time to unload both of them for some pitching and sign a guy like Cain.

“There's a fine line between being confident and cocky, or overconfident. This is an extremely humbling game. But if you don't believe in yourself, no one else is going to believe in you.”


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Online  Re: Lorenzo Cain
Posted: January 12, 2018, 2:05 PM Post
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Location: New Berlin, WI
Brew4U said:
turborickey said:

Yup, sure do... How can that not be a legit concern?


Yeah, I was a little stumped by the poster that pointed out injury concerns with Ortiz too. This is a big year for both Brinson and Ortiz. If either of them misses significant time again this season, it really is going to hamper their value as well as their chances for continued growth. Maybe it is a perfect time to unload both of them for some pitching and sign a guy like Cain.


I think the injury issues are a far bigger concern for Ortiz than Brinson. Starting pitchers need to build on their innings from the prior year and work up to a 200 inning workload. It's hard to do that when injuries limit you to 100-110 innings per year. Position players don't really run into issues like that. Ortiz is young enough to build up durability and potentially help the big league rotation in 2019(solidifying himself for opening day 2020), but he needs a health season and to put up 130-140 good innings this year.


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Online  Re: Lorenzo Cain
Posted: January 12, 2018, 2:46 PM Post
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KeithStone53151 said:
Brew4U said:
turborickey said:

Yup, sure do... How can that not be a legit concern?


Yeah, I was a little stumped by the poster that pointed out injury concerns with Ortiz too. This is a big year for both Brinson and Ortiz. If either of them misses significant time again this season, it really is going to hamper their value as well as their chances for continued growth. Maybe it is a perfect time to unload both of them for some pitching and sign a guy like Cain.


I think the injury issues are a far bigger concern for Ortiz than Brinson. Starting pitchers need to build on their innings from the prior year and work up to a 200 inning workload. It's hard to do that when injuries limit you to 100-110 innings per year. Position players don't really run into issues like that. Ortiz is young enough to build up durability and potentially help the big league rotation in 2019(solidifying himself for opening day 2020), but he needs a health season and to put up 130-140 good innings this year.


I do agree there but for argument's sake, let's say Brinson starts the year in AAA plays alright but gets hut and misses 20-30% of the season like his track record shows. Now he's on the way back from injury, still stuck in the minors and his value is dwindling along with a year of control. This very well could be what happens this season with Brinson. Probably as likely as him coming up and being the awesome player some scouts believe he could be.

“There's a fine line between being confident and cocky, or overconfident. This is an extremely humbling game. But if you don't believe in yourself, no one else is going to believe in you.”


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Offline  Re: Lorenzo Cain
Posted: January 12, 2018, 7:20 PM Post
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Brew4U said:
Here is my Brewer pessimism... We trade Phillips and he goes on to a great career and fan favorite elsewhere. Meanwhile we have Brinson who can barely stay healthy enough to play 100 games a season and his value slowly diminishes to a bag of balls.

I share your concerns about Brinson and his health issues, but Phillips also has an issue to scare people and that's his K rate in the minors.

He struck out a ton both in AA/AAA and then struck out 34 times in only 98 at bats last year with the Brewers. Some guys can still be productive hitters in the major even though they struggle to make contact, but it's the biggest red flag for Phillips.

I'd rather trade neither guy because this season is a near ideal setup to see what we have with both. Simply trade Broxton for whatever best offer can get done.

That opens up 162 games in CF. Braun is a near lock to miss 50-60 games between days off and various strains/pulls. If Santana wasn't traded, that's another 10-15 games where he rests. So you'd have around 220-230ish games that Brinson/Phillips could split to see what we have with each.

Sure, if a really good offer came this offseason involving either guy for a young starting pitcher, then pull the trigger, but no prospect is a lock to be good. Keeping both Brinson/Phillips though allows the Brewers to get a nice look at each come next year without then worrying maybe we traded the wrong guy.


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Online  Re: Lorenzo Cain
Posted: January 12, 2018, 7:39 PM Post
Posts: 1035
Location: New Berlin, WI
danzig6767 said:
Brew4U said:
Here is my Brewer pessimism... We trade Phillips and he goes on to a great career and fan favorite elsewhere. Meanwhile we have Brinson who can barely stay healthy enough to play 100 games a season and his value slowly diminishes to a bag of balls.

I share your concerns about Brinson and his health issues, but Phillips also has an issue to scare people and that's his K rate in the minors.

He struck out a ton both in AA/AAA and then struck out 34 times in only 98 at bats last year with the Brewers. Some guys can still be productive hitters in the major even though they struggle to make contact, but it's the biggest red flag for Phillips.

I'd rather trade neither guy because this season is a near ideal setup to see what we have with both. Simply trade Broxton for whatever best offer can get done.

That opens up 162 games in CF. Braun is a near lock to miss 50-60 games between days off and various strains/pulls. If Santana wasn't traded, that's another 10-15 games where he rests. So you'd have around 220-230ish games that Brinson/Phillips could split to see what we have with each.

Sure, if a really good offer came this offseason involving either guy for a young starting pitcher, then pull the trigger, but no prospect is a lock to be good. Keeping both Brinson/Phillips though allows the Brewers to get a nice look at each come next year without then worrying maybe we traded the wrong guy.


Ok, where exactly is this "braun needs to miss 50-60 games" nonsense coming from? He's played 10 full seasons(not counting his rookie year) and in that time he's had 1 season shortened by suspension, 1 season of 104 games due to injury, and 8 seasons of 135 or more games. If you want to say he's going to miss 20-30 games due to injury/rest...that's more fair than to say he's a "near lock" to miss 50-60 when he's done it twice in his 10+ year career.

Back to the point. Both Phillips and Brinson have concerns, some bigger than others. I expect both to open in the majors against MLB talent, we'll get a good feel how they handle the highest level of competition this year. Brinson toiling in AAA this year isn't realistic.


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Offline  Re: Lorenzo Cain
Posted: January 12, 2018, 9:56 PM Post
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KeithStone53151 said:
Brinson toiling in AAA this year isn't realistic.


Especially if there isn’t a move to lessen the MLB logjam, they could keep Brinson down for 36 days or so and gain a year of control of him (I read that somewhere). Plus his injury to end the season and poor showing last year in the bigs make in somewhat reasonable.


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Offline  Re: Lorenzo Cain
Posted: January 12, 2018, 10:25 PM Post
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Regarding Brinson - I would keep him over Phillips. Yes, Brinson has had injury issues. But the guy has the tools and talent to be an all star level player in the majors. None of our bats has that capability in the upper minors of our system.

Milwaukee has a lot of solid players right now - but we need to add exceptional players to take us to the next level. Brinson has that potential.

I'm not saying that Phillips won't be a good player - but his hit tool is a concern. He looked good in his short time he was in Milwaukee, but he's not going to sustain a .400+ BABIP going forward like he did last year.

Brinson is no perfect player - and I think he will have his own growing pains in the majors - but his reward can be massive if things come together.

Personally, I'd love to see Phillips and Brinson in our outfield next year. Lo Cain is a good player - but I'd rather roll the dice with our young guys.


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Offline  Re: Lorenzo Cain
Posted: January 13, 2018, 12:44 AM Post
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KeithStone53151 said:

Ok, where exactly is this "braun needs to miss 50-60 games" nonsense coming from? He's played 10 full seasons(not counting his rookie year) and in that time he's had 1 season shortened by suspension, 1 season of 104 games due to injury, and 8 seasons of 135 or more games. If you want to say he's going to miss 20-30 games due to injury/rest...that's more fair than to say he's a "near lock" to miss 50-60 when he's done it twice in his 10+ year career.


Three reasons

1. He'll get more rest days off than any of those past seasons you mentioned now that he's older. Even if he miraculously went all of next season injury free, odds are high that he'd get at least 20-25 games of rest.

2. Besides those rest days, i just don't think the odds are good that Braun can avoid some sort of strain or pull to some body part of his which results in a few weeks off.

3. If Santana and both Phillips/Brinson are on the big league roster, i see Counsell trimming some starts from Braun and Santana so long as those two young guys aren't struggling.

Maybe 60 games was a bit excessive, but if i had to lay odds on an over/under for how many games Braun starts this year, excluding games he is off but pinch hits, i wouldn't go higher than 105-110 starts.


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Offline  Re: Lorenzo Cain
Posted: January 13, 2018, 8:22 AM Post
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reillymcshane said:
Regarding Brinson - I would keep him over Phillips. Yes, Brinson has had injury issues. But the guy has the tools and talent to be an all star level player in the majors. None of our bats has that capability in the upper minors of our system.

Milwaukee has a lot of solid players right now - but we need to add exceptional players to take us to the next level. Brinson has that potential.

I'm not saying that Phillips won't be a good player - but his hit tool is a concern. He looked good in his short time he was in Milwaukee, but he's not going to sustain a .400+ BABIP going forward like he did last year.

Brinson is no perfect player - and I think he will have his own growing pains in the majors - but his reward can be massive if things come together.

Personally, I'd love to see Phillips and Brinson in our outfield next year. Lo Cain is a good player - but I'd rather roll the dice with our young guys.


Nobody questions the tools and talent for Brinson. But tools and talent don't always equal production (see Jason Heyward). He seemed overmatched in his first taste against major league pitching and this is a guy who fanned 191 times in low A ball. Since 2015, he's spent most of his time in very hitter friendly environments. To his credit, he's produced like he should there and the strikeout rate has come down considerably but there has to be some concerns.


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