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Fixing 2B/C

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Offline  Re: Fixing 2B/C
#41

Posted: May 14, 2018, 2:23 PM Post
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Location: Chicago
Scooter haters have been quiet.


I'll bite. He's still a poor defender at second and was equally bad in left field, right field and third base. With a GM who prefers strong versatile defenders (Perez, Sogard, Saldino) he's not really a fit with Milwaukee anymore.

Secondly, he still can't hit left handed pitching at all. His three biggest years at the plate: 2013, 2017 and 2018 also coincide with having a BABiP in those seasons of nearly .340 or better. More importantly, the percentage of balls he puts in play is less and the percentages of at bats that end in a strike out is up more than anything he did with the Brewers. Again with a GM who is actively trying to get away from the all-or-nothing free swingers, Gennett is the opposite of the type of player the Brewers having been building their roster with.

What he brings to the table is increased power. However, power for the sake of power isn't worth much in today's game. Mark Reynolds, Chris Carter, Mike Napoli, are all playing on minor league deals despite each averaging 30 home runs or more per 162 games over the course of their careers.


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Online  Re: Fixing 2B/C
#42

Posted: May 14, 2018, 2:35 PM Post
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I don't know how we got to this place where we have the Scooter "haters" and the guys who won't let it go that he was moved on from but it sure does stink.

There were so many factors in the move. Salary, defense, he wasn't hitting all that great for us, lack of another position, we had an up and comer at the same position who had a great year, plus probably other factors I'm not even remembering. It is what it is. Would his stat line be a great addition in our 6-hole? Of course. But the rest of this stuff is really a bunch of nonsense that just divides us for really no good reason.


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Offline  Re: Fixing 2B/C
#43

Posted: May 14, 2018, 3:04 PM Post
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I guess I'm not really a "hater". Gennett was just a guy on a mediocre club. A new GM was brought in to rebuild the club and jettisoned a mediocre player who upped his power game in the mythical "age 27 and 28" seasons. Nothing more nothing less.


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Offline  Re: Fixing 2B/C
#44

Posted: May 14, 2018, 7:01 PM Post
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From what I recall, Gennett made some adjustments to his swing/mechanics in Cincy. It's not unheard of to pick up power and become a decent hitter after age 25. Nelson Cruz is the obvious example, but Brian Dozier hit 16 home runs in his entire minor league career (1613 PAs), then 18 in the majors at age 26, then 23 at age 27, and the rest is history.

Just because a guy is average at best at age 25/26 doesn't mean he'll stay that way. And I don't care that he can't hit LHP (.691 OPS last year, which is better than the Brewers overall OPS from 2B this year) - 70% of pitchers are right-handed, and he OPS'd .930 against said RHP last year.


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Offline  Re: Fixing 2B/C
#45

Posted: May 15, 2018, 9:35 AM Post
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LouisEly said:
From what I recall, Gennett made some adjustments to his swing/mechanics in Cincy. It's not unheard of to pick up power and become a decent hitter after age 25. Nelson Cruz is the obvious example, but Brian Dozier hit 16 home runs in his entire minor league career (1613 PAs), then 18 in the majors at age 26, then 23 at age 27, and the rest is history.

Just because a guy is average at best at age 25/26 doesn't mean he'll stay that way. And I don't care that he can't hit LHP (.691 OPS last year, which is better than the Brewers overall OPS from 2B this year) - 70% of pitchers are right-handed, and he OPS'd .930 against said RHP last year.


That's fine - and you win some/lose some with that. Sometimes it's hard to know who that person is that will add power to their game.

If it becomes a pattern that the Brewers keep giving up on guys that just needed a tweak or a bit more time, that's one thing. They made a mistake in judgment on this one in hindsight. It is what it is at this point.


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Offline  Re: Fixing 2B/C
#46

Posted: May 15, 2018, 9:48 AM Post
Posts: 2011
Location: New Berlin, WI
I'm a bit surprised Dozier isn't being discussed. The Twins are a shade below 500 right now. Mind you they are very talented and could improve...but if they don't, Dozier is in a contract year and would be a rental. I know he doesn't fit the flexibility that Stearns/CC desire, but the talent would play. We have enough flexibility elsewhere to make it work. Cain/Yelich/Braun/Shaw/Dozier/Thames/Pina/Arcia...take arguably our weakest offensive position and replace it with a 40 hr hitter.


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Offline  Re: Fixing 2B/C
#47

Posted: May 15, 2018, 10:19 AM Post
Posts: 11371
Both positions have started stabilizing with Villar and Perez recently swinging the bat better and Saladino replacing Sogard. Pina's on a bit of a tear too while Bandy has been MIA. They still need to replace Bandy with Bethancourt in the backup catcher role and let Nottingham continue to progress at AAA. If there are trades that make sense as the deadline approaches, then I'm sure they'll be considered.


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Online  Re: Fixing 2B/C
#48

Posted: May 15, 2018, 10:47 AM Post
Posts: 12574
KeithStone53151 said:
I'm a bit surprised Dozier isn't being discussed. The Twins are a shade below 500 right now. Mind you they are very talented and could improve...but if they don't, Dozier is in a contract year and would be a rental. I know he doesn't fit the flexibility that Stearns/CC desire, but the talent would play. We have enough flexibility elsewhere to make it work. Cain/Yelich/Braun/Shaw/Dozier/Thames/Pina/Arcia...take arguably our weakest offensive position and replace it with a 40 hr hitter.


Can't remember where but I was discussing Dozier fairly extensively with Louis in another thread.


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Offline  Re: Fixing 2B/C
#49

Posted: May 15, 2018, 11:07 AM Post
Posts: 7554
Location: Kenosha, WI
All this talk and Gennett was still only a 2.4 WAR player last year. Which tells me he isn’t even that special anyway because of defense. He was a nice player, but he didn’t make sense for us and there was zero logical argument at the time to keep him over Villar. Didn’t work out for us, darn. Sometimes players go elsewhere and magically break out...we got lucky with one in Shaw. You win some...and you lose some.


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Offline  Re: Fixing 2B/C
#50

Posted: May 15, 2018, 1:23 PM Post
Posts: 2011
Location: New Berlin, WI
MrTPlush said:
All this talk and Gennett was still only a 2.4 WAR player last year. Which tells me he isn’t even that special anyway because of defense. He was a nice player, but he didn’t make sense for us and there was zero logical argument at the time to keep him over Villar. Didn’t work out for us, darn. Sometimes players go elsewhere and magically break out...we got lucky with one in Shaw. You win some...and you lose some.


2.4 WAR is very solid, especially considering it's basically all coming from offense as he's an average defender at best. Obviously in hindsight, cutting the guy wasn't a wise decision. I agree above, and Stearns has won far and away more than he's lost. No GM makes the perfect decision every time.


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Offline  Re: Fixing 2B/C
#51

Posted: May 15, 2018, 2:04 PM Post
Posts: 2955
Had Gennett been able to play any other position than 2B, he wouldn't have gotten waived at the end of last year's Spring Training. It basically came down to him or Perez for the MLB roster, and Perez's versatility won the Brewers over at the time - particularly because their roster really needed someone to cover multiple positions due to lack of proven depth. Much has been made about comparing Villar to Gennett since Scooter was released, but at the time the move was made nobody questioned the decision for Villar to be the Brewers' opening day 2B in 2017. There was no contest in who was the more valued player following the 2016 season.

Good for Scooter to take full advantage of his opportunity in Cincy and earn himself a nice, long MLB career that appears to be on the verge of a nice FA payday a few offseasons from now. The other thing that needs to be considered with him is he's been given the luxury of putting up #'s for a dumpster fire of a team with no immediate plans on winning. In fact he's never really been on a team that had any pressure to win and make a postseason push - closest he came was that 2014 Brewers season where they just cratered from mid-August to season's end when it counted most.


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Offline  Re: Fixing 2B/C
#52

Posted: May 15, 2018, 2:20 PM Post
Posts: 2011
Location: New Berlin, WI
Fear The Chorizo said:
Had Gennett been able to play any other position than 2B, he wouldn't have gotten waived at the end of last year's Spring Training. It basically came down to him or Perez for the MLB roster, and Perez's versatility won the Brewers over at the time - particularly because their roster really needed someone to cover multiple positions due to lack of proven depth. Much has been made about comparing Villar to Gennett since Scooter was released, but at the time the move was made nobody questioned the decision for Villar to be the Brewers' opening day 2B in 2017. There was no contest in who was the more valued player following the 2016 season.

Good for Scooter to take full advantage of his opportunity in Cincy and earn himself a nice, long MLB career that appears to be on the verge of a nice FA payday a few offseasons from now. The other thing that needs to be considered with him is he's been given the luxury of putting up #'s for a dumpster fire of a team with no immediate plans on winning. In fact he's never really been on a team that had any pressure to win and make a postseason push - closest he came was that 2014 Brewers season where they just cratered from mid-August to season's end when it counted most.


Gennett is a solid player, but he isn't really a first division regular. He's much better suited being one of the better hitters on a 2nd division team than batting 7th or 8th and playing average defense on a contender.


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Offline  Re: Fixing 2B/C
#53

Posted: May 15, 2018, 2:25 PM Post
Posts: 2348
Location: Madison, WI
I'm happy for Scooter to be doing well. Good for him, hope he can make himself a nice chunk of money. But anyone that claims they saw this coming is just full of it. Also, I'd gladly take him back if the price wasn't high. with a jack of all trades utility guy like Perez it could allow for a no flex guy like him. Plus, he'd be playing every game vs a righty so reduces your need for bench players to play (vs now when you're rotating every day it seems)


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Online  Re: Fixing 2B/C
#54

Posted: May 15, 2018, 2:27 PM Post
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KeithStone53151 said:
Fear The Chorizo said:
Had Gennett been able to play any other position than 2B, he wouldn't have gotten waived at the end of last year's Spring Training. It basically came down to him or Perez for the MLB roster, and Perez's versatility won the Brewers over at the time - particularly because their roster really needed someone to cover multiple positions due to lack of proven depth. Much has been made about comparing Villar to Gennett since Scooter was released, but at the time the move was made nobody questioned the decision for Villar to be the Brewers' opening day 2B in 2017. There was no contest in who was the more valued player following the 2016 season.

Good for Scooter to take full advantage of his opportunity in Cincy and earn himself a nice, long MLB career that appears to be on the verge of a nice FA payday a few offseasons from now. The other thing that needs to be considered with him is he's been given the luxury of putting up #'s for a dumpster fire of a team with no immediate plans on winning. In fact he's never really been on a team that had any pressure to win and make a postseason push - closest he came was that 2014 Brewers season where they just cratered from mid-August to season's end when it counted most.


Gennett is a solid player, but he isn't really a first division regular. He's much better suited being one of the better hitters on a 2nd division team than batting 7th or 8th and playing average defense on a contender.


...but still better than anything we are trotting out there.


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Online  Re: Fixing 2B/C
#55

Posted: May 15, 2018, 2:36 PM Post
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Villar is just heating up. He’s gonna put on a show the rest of the season.


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Online  Re: Fixing 2B/C
#56

Posted: May 15, 2018, 2:55 PM Post
Posts: 12574
Brew4U said:
Villar is just heating up. He’s gonna put on a show the rest of the season.


I can't tell if you are totally joking, half serious hoping, or dead serious. But he had a nice night last night. I still agree with you that he's the best option of those currently on the roster to play 2nd (and contrary to popular belief his defense is not that bad).

Why he was totally benched for mediocre players on a team that regularly rotates guys in and out remains a mystery to me.


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Online  Re: Fixing 2B/C
#57

Posted: May 15, 2018, 3:40 PM Post
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adambr2 said:
Brew4U said:
Villar is just heating up. He’s gonna put on a show the rest of the season.


I can't tell if you are totally joking, half serious hoping, or dead serious. But he had a nice night last night. I still agree with you that he's the best option of those currently on the roster to play 2nd (and contrary to popular belief his defense is not that bad).

Why he was totally benched for mediocre players on a team that regularly rotates guys in and out remains a mystery to me.



Depending how the next week to month goes, I’ll let you know. [laughing]


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Offline  Re: Fixing 2B/C
#58

Posted: May 15, 2018, 4:01 PM Post
Posts: 672
I apologize in advance for patting myself on the back a little, but I wanted to trade Villar for the best offer possible after his amazing 2016 season and keep Scooter. It wasn't even about liking Scooter though; I was just in "asset management" mode. I figured Villar's value would never be that high again and Scooter's would never be that low.

I've no right to brag for guessing right in that particular situation, but I do think the asset management principle (as opposed to what you think of Scooter or Villar) is the real story because it will guide you to the right choice more often than not.


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Offline  Re: Fixing 2B/C
#59

Posted: May 15, 2018, 8:10 PM Post
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This is not a discussion about letting Gennett go a year and a half ago.

This is a discussion about trading for him NOW.


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Offline  Re: Fixing 2B/C
#60

Posted: May 16, 2018, 7:15 AM Post
Posts: 621
With Vogt going down , are there any left handed hitting catchers worth a ....?


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