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Sonny Gray

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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray
#81

Posted: January 01, 2019, 7:46 AM Post
Posts: 12094
There's definitely reasons to doubt Gray, but the fact is for two seasons, 2014 and 2015 he was a true ace. But 2 of the last 3 years he's been pedestrian though in 2017 his numbers were quite good.

They won't have to pay ace-like price for a guy who's been one. That's maybe a shot worth taking. If he just turns out to be a serviceable 3-4 starter, so be it.


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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray
#82

Posted: January 01, 2019, 8:37 AM Post
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Worst case he's another #4 to throw on the pile. Best case is probably as a strong #2. The added depth would also free them up to trade a starter to shore up another position. It is for sure a calculated risk, but depending on the return to the Yankees, I think it's worth taking.


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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray
#83

Posted: January 01, 2019, 7:20 PM Post
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Joey Meyer Bombs said:
Worst case he's another #4 to throw on the pile. Best case is probably as a strong #2. The added depth would also free them up to trade a starter to shore up another position. It is for sure a calculated risk, but depending on the return to the Yankees, I think it's worth taking.


Yes, this sums up my thoughts too. Pay "as is" price and at worst, you have an "as is" pitcher. At best, you have a "buy low" situation.


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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray
#84

Posted: January 01, 2019, 8:01 PM Post
Posts: 217
CheezWizHed said:
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
Worst case he's another #4 to throw on the pile. Best case is probably as a strong #2. The added depth would also free them up to trade a starter to shore up another position. It is for sure a calculated risk, but depending on the return to the Yankees, I think it's worth taking.


Yes, this sums up my thoughts too. Pay "as is" price and at worst, you have an "as is" pitcher. At best, you have a "buy low" situation.


That depends upon the "as is" price... I'm not really that interested in giving up much of value for the chance that he can return to his earlier form - especially with the recent change in pitching coach - and I don't see the Yankees accepting what I'd be OK parting with.


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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray
#85

Posted: January 02, 2019, 9:26 AM Post
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I think the narrative that Sonny Gray "needs" to have Derek Johnson (his college coach at Vanderbilt FYI) back as his pitching coach is likely one made up around these parts. Although I'm sure it would not hurt, he HAS had several successful MLB seasons without Johnson as his pitching coach.


Last edited by A Swing and A Drive on January 02, 2019, 9:48 AM, edited 1 time in total.

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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray
#86

Posted: January 02, 2019, 9:39 AM Post
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A Swing and A Drive said:
I think the narrative that Sonny Gray "needs" to have Derek Johnson (his college coach at Vanderbilt FYI) back as his pitching coach is likely one made up around these parts. Although I'm sure it would not hurt, he HAS had several successful MLB seasons without Johnson has his pitching coach.


I could not agree with this more. That idea is entirely fan manufactured. The idea that the Brewers wouldn't have interest now because Johnson is no longer the pitching coach is a little crazy. It isn't like Hook isn't going to following most of the same philosophies as the guy he previously worked under. Derek Johnson didn't have any sort of magic elixir. The Brewers have simply adopted a philosophy of employing analytics to help put their pitchers in the best position for success, and that happened to coincide with Johnson's term here as pitching coach. I think that he was effective as a coach here, but I also think saying that losing him is a massive loss is probably blowing things out of proportion.


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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray
#87

Posted: January 02, 2019, 9:50 AM Post
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Although I would also add that not just Brewer fans, but MLB baseball fans in general thought the Brewers had some "magic elixir" last season, as everyone seemed to be flummoxed that the Brewers got as far as they did in the Playoffs last year with the starting rotation that they had.

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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray
#88

Posted: January 02, 2019, 12:51 PM Post
Posts: 217
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
A Swing and A Drive said:
I think the narrative that Sonny Gray "needs" to have Derek Johnson (his college coach at Vanderbilt FYI) back as his pitching coach is likely one made up around these parts. Although I'm sure it would not hurt, he HAS had several successful MLB seasons without Johnson has his pitching coach.


I could not agree with this more. That idea is entirely fan manufactured. The idea that the Brewers wouldn't have interest now because Johnson is no longer the pitching coach is a little crazy. It isn't like Hook isn't going to following most of the same philosophies as the guy he previously worked under. Derek Johnson didn't have any sort of magic elixir. The Brewers have simply adopted a philosophy of employing analytics to help put their pitchers in the best position for success, and that happened to coincide with Johnson's term here as pitching coach. I think that he was effective as a coach here, but I also think saying that losing him is a massive loss is probably blowing things out of proportion.


I never really viewed it as a "need" - more of a "comfort zone" for Gray. I'm not sure who here thought that the Brewers weren't interested now - Stearns makes those decisions, not anyone on the coaching staff - or are you thinking that there are those who felt that the only reason why the Brewers would be interested was because of Johnson?

The question remains, what would you be willing to give up for yet another #4 starter who has a chance to be better? Would you give up a significant asset, which is what the Yankees appear to be holding out for?


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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray
#89

Posted: January 02, 2019, 1:06 PM Post
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anglotiger said:
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
A Swing and A Drive said:
I think the narrative that Sonny Gray "needs" to have Derek Johnson (his college coach at Vanderbilt FYI) back as his pitching coach is likely one made up around these parts. Although I'm sure it would not hurt, he HAS had several successful MLB seasons without Johnson has his pitching coach.


I could not agree with this more. That idea is entirely fan manufactured. The idea that the Brewers wouldn't have interest now because Johnson is no longer the pitching coach is a little crazy. It isn't like Hook isn't going to following most of the same philosophies as the guy he previously worked under. Derek Johnson didn't have any sort of magic elixir. The Brewers have simply adopted a philosophy of employing analytics to help put their pitchers in the best position for success, and that happened to coincide with Johnson's term here as pitching coach. I think that he was effective as a coach here, but I also think saying that losing him is a massive loss is probably blowing things out of proportion.


I never really viewed it as a "need" - more of a "comfort zone" for Gray. I'm not sure who here thought that the Brewers weren't interested now - Stearns makes those decisions, not anyone on the coaching staff - or are you thinking that there are those who felt that the only reason why the Brewers would be interested was because of Johnson?

The question remains, what would you be willing to give up for yet another #4 starter who has a chance to be better? Would you give up a significant asset, which is what the Yankees appear to be holding out for?


Yes to the bolded part. There were actually posters that pretty much said that verbatim.

As for the return, I guess it depends on what they feel is a "significant" asset. If we're talking Gray for Thames straight up, or even Gray for Thames or Broxton and a low-level prospect, I'd be good with that. I wouldn't give up an upper-end prospect, though. I'm not sure who else on the MLB roster would be a fit for the Yankees needs.


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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray
#90

Posted: January 02, 2019, 1:06 PM Post
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I would give up Thames and a prospect value about the level of OF Troy Stokes Jr/Trent Grisham for Sonny Gray.

Assuming the Yankees value Thames and want to move on from the disappointing Greg Bird, this trade makes sense for both teams. Thames could platoon with Luke Voit as Yankees 1B while providing depth in OF corners.

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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray
#91

Posted: January 02, 2019, 1:12 PM Post
Posts: 217
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
As for the return, I guess it depends on what they feel is a "significant" asset. If we're talking Gray for Thames straight up, or even Gray for Thames or Broxton and a low-level prospect, I'd be good with that. I wouldn't give up an upper-end prospect, though. I'm not sure who else on the MLB roster would be a fit for the Yankees needs.


I think that's an acceptable cost for taking the chance. I'd really need some convincing to part with more though. Thankfully, I'm not the one on the hot seat for that decision... [laughing]


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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray
#92

Posted: January 02, 2019, 1:37 PM Post
Posts: 4595
A Swing and A Drive said:
I would give up Thames and a prospect value about the level of OF Troy Stokes Jr/Trent Grisham for Sonny Gray.

Assuming the Yankees value Thames and want to move on from the disappointing Greg Bird, this trade makes sense for both teams. Thames could platoon with Luke Voit as Yankees 1B while providing depth in OF corners.


Not Stokes. Nuh-uh...

Stokes is too good to be given up for a reclamation project like Gray. Grisham, too.

Thames is the most, and I'd expect a lottery ticket or two to be thrown in.


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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray
#93

Posted: January 02, 2019, 2:53 PM Post
Posts: 556
You're really not interested in parting ways with Grisham? Can't imagine that kid would have much value at all at this point. I think I'd be fine with a Thames/Grisham package in exchange for Gray, but I'm guessing the Yankees would be looking for more.


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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray
#94

Posted: January 02, 2019, 4:28 PM Post
Posts: 693
clancyphile said:
A Swing and A Drive said:
I would give up Thames and a prospect value about the level of OF Troy Stokes Jr/Trent Grisham for Sonny Gray.

Assuming the Yankees value Thames and want to move on from the disappointing Greg Bird, this trade makes sense for both teams. Thames could platoon with Luke Voit as Yankees 1B while providing depth in OF corners.


Not Stokes. Nuh-uh...

Stokes is too good to be given up for a reclamation project like Gray. Grisham, too.

Thames is the most, and I'd expect a lottery ticket or two to be thrown in.


I generally agree with you here with regards to including prospects. I don't want Gray, but by swapping the salaries of Gray and Thames at least it's only a net ~$3mm increase in payroll.


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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray
#95

Posted: January 02, 2019, 4:35 PM Post
Posts: 1582
Thames, Stokes, and Roegner for Gray.


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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray
#96

Posted: January 02, 2019, 5:22 PM Post
Posts: 1420
At this point I’m telling Crashman we’re making a deal or scratch us off of his list of possibles.


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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray
#97

Posted: January 02, 2019, 6:04 PM Post
Posts: 3106
Without Johnson the Brewers should have zero interest in Gray unless they can make it salary neutral. I wouldn’t give up anything of value for Gray and I wouldn’t pick up a nickel of his contract over what we dump to them.

And yes, Johnson is the only reason we would bring in this guy at this point in his career and yes, DJ is elite and was his college coach. It is naive to think that wasn’t a huge factor in bringing in a project like Gray at the time.


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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray
#98

Posted: January 02, 2019, 6:22 PM Post
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Boomer5 said:
Without Johnson the Brewers should have zero interest in Gray unless they can make it salary neutral. I wouldn’t give up anything of value for Gray and I wouldn’t pick up a nickel of his contract over what we dump to them.

And yes, Johnson is the only reason we would bring in this guy at this point in his career and yes, DJ is elite and was his college coach. It is naive to think that wasn’t a huge factor in bringing in a project like Gray at the time.


I personally think it’s naive to think that one coach would make that much of a difference on a professional athlete. The Brewers are interested because they think his value could outweigh the cost. Derek Johnson has nothing to do with that. If the Brewers thought the way you do, they would have no interest in Gray. That doesn’t seem to be the case.


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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray
#99

Posted: January 02, 2019, 7:03 PM Post
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Boomer5 said:
Without Johnson the Brewers should have zero interest in Gray unless they can make it salary neutral. I wouldn’t give up anything of value for Gray and I wouldn’t pick up a nickel of his contract over what we dump to them.

And yes, Johnson is the only reason we would bring in this guy at this point in his career and yes, DJ is elite and was his college coach. It is naive to think that wasn’t a huge factor in bringing in a project like Gray at the time.


I'm sorry but this doesn't make a lick of sense.


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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray
Posted: January 02, 2019, 7:27 PM Post
Posts: 12094
Boomer5 said:
Without Johnson the Brewers should have zero interest in Gray unless they can make it salary neutral. I wouldn’t give up anything of value for Gray and I wouldn’t pick up a nickel of his contract over what we dump to them.

And yes, Johnson is the only reason we would bring in this guy at this point in his career and yes, DJ is elite and was his college coach. It is naive to think that wasn’t a huge factor in bringing in a project like Gray at the time.


Johnson wasn't the Oakland pitching coach in 2015 when Gray finished 3rd in the CY voting was he? Did the Yankees employ one pitching coach on the road and one at home resulting in huge home/road splits? Gray's a veteran major league pitcher who can figure out things on his own without a pitching coach making a huge difference.


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