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2B/3B Options

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Offline  Re: 2B/3B Options
#41

Posted: November 01, 2018, 7:18 PM Post
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Humans Need Water said:
"Positioning" is a very broad term whereas shifting is more focused. Shaw is between a good and great 3b. He has instincts, covers ground, can pick a bunt, is accurate with his throws and has a solid arm - *all* of this, combined with how they *shift* at 2b, is why he was able to function as a 2b. Saying Shaw was *solely* able to function due to positioning is not only false but a slap in the face to his abilities as a fielder/thrower.


Shaw was not called on to have any level of range whatsoever. He held up fairly decently because they had him positioned so well and converted outs into outs. He wasn't taking hits away from anyone. Other than of course when they had him lined up in a spot that other teams would have had no one.

You mentioned Machado earlier. I have no idea why DRS rated him so poorly with the Os in the first half but he was 3 last year in what amounts to 42 full games and was positive in LA as well. Maybe it's because he was dogging it knowing his team sucks and he'll be traded anyway so didn't get to balls he should otherwise have? Fits his personality...


Baltimore is one of the worst teams in baseball at advance scouting and utilizing positioning and shifts. It's one of the reasons Stearns was so hot after so many of their pitchers. Take any Orioles pitcher and have them pitch in front of the Brewers positioned defense and it shaves about a run and a half off their ERA. It's that dramatic.

Positioning and shifting is *not* the most important factor in defensive performance. If it is then you're literally saying that *anybody* can be a successful defender as long as the coaching staff positions them correctly.


It's 100% the most important factor in team defense. You could have a team full of poorly positioned gold glovers save fewer defensive runs than a team with mere average and above average glovers who are positioned correctly. You can't field what you're not in position to glove.

That their skill set is irrelevant. False. Positioning and shifting is applied to increase your chances of getting a batter out, which has nothing to do with defensive performance itself. Defensive performance itself is the product of having the opportunity to make a play followed by actually making that play, regardless of where one is positioned. There's *zero* evidence to back up your *belief* that DRS is heavily skewed to favor a player whose team positions them correctly.


Skill-set is not entirely irrelevant. Travis Shaw is a great example. He's sound enough capturing ball into glove and throwing said ball accurately to the right base. That's not asking him to have amazing range, quick hands, or a canon for an arm. But you can have a defense that saves run with a Shaw put in the right spots.

Also, how exactly is an individual's DRS *more* team measured than individual? DRS, while flawed, as they all are, is the best defensive metric there is but Statcast will soon enough be the best.


Defensive runs saved is absolutely a team stat. If your organization correctly scouts, positions, and pitches to initiate contact to where you have your 9 defenders positioned it will save runs. And your individual defenders don't have to be elite to be a leader in DRS. The Brewers have 2 elite defenders and a bunch of average ones. Yet placement combined with pitch selection allowed the team to finish 2nd in DRS. Without the organization's heavy emphasis on shifts, placement, and it's marriage with pitch strategy, this team's defensive effectiveness would be middle of the pack at best with these position players.

Finally, what are you talking about when it comes to Asdrubal Cabrera? Starting in 2009, and every year since, he's been a negative DRS at both 2b and SS. He hasn't been a plus defender since 2007/2008...anywhere. He's a good bat up the middle but isn't good in the field.


What I've said multiple times is that he's been adequate at 2B outside of NYM and PHI which are two very poor teams at positioning. He amassed -31 DRS at 2B in the past 2 years with the Mets and Phillies. His 6 year total at 2B is -21 meaning he saved 10 runs at 2B the four years prior. All I've ever said is he'd look a lot better playing 2B for the Brewers and to me that is obvious. People are writing him off as a butcher when if positioned correctly he'd be fine and his bat would be a big plus up the middle.


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Offline  Re: 2B/3B Options
#42

Posted: November 01, 2018, 7:26 PM Post
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At least when they sign Cabrera, everyone will be well versed as to why. [laughing]

And that's not a guarantee, but given that the best fit already signed (Eduardo Escobar), I think Stearns will be a little more aggressive getting Cabrera. Btw, the one team that ranked higher in DRS than the Brewers were the Dbacks, who were quick to lock up Escobar before free agency. I think Stearns would've been all over Escobar.


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Offline  Re: 2B/3B Options
#43

Posted: November 02, 2018, 1:15 PM Post
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Yuni is still active in the Mexican League!
[laughing]


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Offline  Re: 2B/3B Options
#44

Posted: November 02, 2018, 4:00 PM Post
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Some MLBTR predictions for 2B/3B options...

Manny Machado, 13/390
Josh Donaldson, 1/20
Marwin Gonzalez, 4/36
Jed Lowrie, 3/30
Daniel Murphy, 2/20
Brian Dozier, 1/10
DJ LeMahieu, 2/18
Mike Moustakas, 2/16


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Offline  Re: 2B/3B Options
#45

Posted: November 02, 2018, 5:14 PM Post
Posts: 851
After thinking about what the Brewers Rotation "could" look like next season it might be more important to field a stronger infield defense than they did in 2018.

Ground ball rates:
Woodruff- 50% ML career, similar in the minors
Chacin- 42.2% 2018, but 47.4% career
Davies- 48.7% career
Burnes- 45.9% was the lowest rate in the minors.
Nelson- 49.7% career
Miley- 49% career (if retained)


We know Suter and his FB tendancy won't be in the rotation in 2019. Anderson very much seems in question. Peralta appears to be more FB:GB neutral.

Point being is they may be less willing to play Shaw primarily at 2b compared to what I initially thought. So that might diminish the appeal of Donaldson and Moustakas. It might increase the interest in LeMahieu given his strong defense (and that contract prediction from MLBTR is pretty palatable).


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Offline  Re: 2B/3B Options
#46

Posted: November 02, 2018, 5:49 PM Post
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The Moustakas deal seems to be a good one for the Crew. Two years, time enough for Erceg to get ready for the majors. Plus, if Hiura forces his way up, the Crew can move Shaw to first.


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Offline  Re: 2B/3B Options
#47

Posted: November 03, 2018, 5:27 AM Post
Posts: 22381
sveumrules said:
Some MLBTR predictions for 2B/3B options...

Manny Machado, 13/390
Josh Donaldson, 1/20
Marwin Gonzalez, 4/36
Jed Lowrie, 3/30
Daniel Murphy, 2/20
Brian Dozier, 1/10
DJ LeMahieu, 2/18
Mike Moustakas, 2/16


Really kind of odd that Moose would turn down a 1/15 option from us if his market really is 2/16. Unless he just already knew we weren't going to exercise 1/15 from our end either.


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Offline  Re: 2B/3B Options
#48

Posted: November 03, 2018, 6:08 AM Post
Posts: 831
sveumrules said:
Some MLBTR predictions for 2B/3B options...

Manny Machado, 13/390
Josh Donaldson, 1/20
Marwin Gonzalez, 4/36
Jed Lowrie, 3/30
Daniel Murphy, 2/20
Brian Dozier, 1/10
DJ LeMahieu, 2/18
Mike Moustakas, 2/16



I have a hard time believing any team is gonna come close to $400 mil for Machado. Just don’t see it. Granted it’s over 13 years....just seems like too much for a low character individual.


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Offline  Re: 2B/3B Options
#49

Posted: November 03, 2018, 8:12 AM Post
Posts: 1432
Would love to get Donaldson.


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Online  Re: 2B/3B Options
#50

Posted: November 03, 2018, 8:15 AM Post
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recte44 said:

Damn straight. I hit .406 this year. Almost won the battling title.

I've still got it, my friends. Show me some love.

Image


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Offline  Re: 2B/3B Options
#51

Posted: November 03, 2018, 8:16 AM Post
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Location: Milwaukee, WI
It’d be great to get Yuni and Schoop on the same team and see how it goes [laughing]

"I'm not as good as I was but in big moments I'm still the guy. I want that opportunity." -Ryan Braun


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Offline  Re: 2B/3B Options
#52

Posted: November 03, 2018, 9:17 AM Post
Posts: 2406
Location: Madison, WI
I kind of like Logan Forsythe. He was bad, bad, bad, bad this past season. His power numbers were also bad in 2017. But the OBP in the 3 year splits (.243/.333/.364/.697) is still OK. If last year was an outlier, the three year splits from 2015-2017 is a very respectable .261/.348/.414/.762. Defensive metrics pretty much have him as an average defender at 2B and he can also play some 3B, since he's a right-handed bat he probably could give Shaw some days off against lefties. Next year will be his age 32 season so he won't be too old.

The couple estimates I've seen have him on a 1 year deal for 1 or 2 million dollars. If he bounced back to 2015-2017 form he'd be a great addition. If he'd flop, well hopefully Hiura would be ready by June and then Forsythe could back him up and still probably get some playing time at third against lefties.

If I was confident that I could get him signed to a 1 year, 2 million (or less) contract, I'd lean towards declining arbitration on Schoop and just sign Forsythe as a stop-gap for Hiura.


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Offline  Re: 2B/3B Options
#53

Posted: November 03, 2018, 9:23 AM Post
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adambr2 said:
sveumrules said:
Some MLBTR predictions for 2B/3B options...

Manny Machado, 13/390
Josh Donaldson, 1/20
Marwin Gonzalez, 4/36
Jed Lowrie, 3/30
Daniel Murphy, 2/20
Brian Dozier, 1/10
DJ LeMahieu, 2/18
Mike Moustakas, 2/16


Really kind of odd that Moose would turn down a 1/15 option from us if his market really is 2/16. Unless he just already knew we weren't going to exercise 1/15 from our end either.


They had Moose at 5/85 last year, so they really whiffed that one. There was the rumored 3/45 offer early in FA that was turned down, but of course Boras is going to deny that after the way things played out.

I expect another long winter for Moose.


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Offline  Re: 2B/3B Options
#54

Posted: November 03, 2018, 9:53 AM Post
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So did the Brewers allow Moose to decline his part of the option for optics? We weren't going to pick it up were we?


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Offline  Re: 2B/3B Options
#55

Posted: November 03, 2018, 3:05 PM Post
Posts: 5080
reillymcshane said:
recte44 said:

Damn straight. I hit .406 this year. Almost won the battling title.

I've still got it, my friends. Show me some love.

Image


I'm not opposed to a NRI with an invite to spring training - and an opt-out if he doesn't make the roster...


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Offline  Re: 2B/3B Options
#56

Posted: November 03, 2018, 3:08 PM Post
Posts: 5080
sveumrules said:
They had Moose at 5/85 last year, so they really whiffed that one. There was the rumored 3/45 offer early in FA that was turned down, but of course Boras is going to deny that after the way things played out.

I expect another long winter for Moose.


If that prediction is right, if I'm DS, I offer Moose 4 years and $35 million and make Erceg available for the right deal.


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Offline  Re: 2B/3B Options
#57

Posted: November 03, 2018, 4:42 PM Post
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I don't want to roll with 2 3B playing infield. We need a true 2B, and let Shaw play his actual position.

imo


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Offline  Re: 2B/3B Options
#58

Posted: November 03, 2018, 6:14 PM Post
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Location: Milwaukee, WI
What did Shaw do in his time at 2B to suggest he’s not a second basemen? I thought he fit well in that position.

"I'm not as good as I was but in big moments I'm still the guy. I want that opportunity." -Ryan Braun


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Offline  Re: 2B/3B Options
#59

Posted: November 03, 2018, 7:05 PM Post
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I doubt they go shopping for a 2B when Hiura should be ready by at least 2020. Then you're stuck with an overpaid free agent for a few more years.

Part of the appeal of the Schoop trade ( [sad] ) was that he gives you a bridge year starting 2B.


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Offline  Re: 2B/3B Options
#60

Posted: November 03, 2018, 10:16 PM Post
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I think its either Schoop or Shaw at second in 2019


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