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Corey Kluber available?

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Offline  Re: Corey Kluber available?
Posted: February 12, 2019, 8:46 AM Post
Posts: 474
Shaw/Peralta/Ray for Kluber
Sign Moose to a 3/45 yr deal


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Offline  Re: Corey Kluber available?
Posted: February 12, 2019, 8:55 AM Post
Posts: 10070
The fact Moose is still unsigned tells me him getting that kind of deal is not going to happen.

I don't support such a downgrade either. Losing Peralta on the pitching staff and Shaw's bat is probably killing a ton of what Kluber brings if not all. I think the downgrade from Shaw to Moose is a lot more drastic than some think. Statistically it may not be a huge difference, but having a Shaw type bat instead of Moose in our lineup is a big difference. Shaw is a lot more competent than Moose at the plate.

I think the Brewers interest in Moose is if he can be had cheap and short term. They will just employ the same logjam they did last year if/when Hiura shows up. Putting a pretty solid bat on the bench at all times.


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Offline  Re: Corey Kluber available?
Posted: February 12, 2019, 9:12 AM Post
Posts: 474
MrTPlush said:
The fact Moose is still unsigned tells me him getting that kind of deal is not going to happen.

I don't support such a downgrade either. Losing Peralta on the pitching staff and Shaw's bat is probably killing a ton of what Kluber brings if not all. I think the downgrade from Shaw to Moose is a lot more drastic than some think. Statistically it may not be a huge difference, but having a Shaw type bat instead of Moose in our lineup is a big difference. Shaw is a lot more competent than Moose at the plate.

I think the Brewers interest in Moose is if he can be had cheap and short term. They will just employ the same logjam they did last year if/when Hiura shows up. Putting a pretty solid bat on the bench at all times.


Disagree on almost everyuting you wrote

Kluber >>>> Peralta
Shaw> Moose


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Offline  Re: Corey Kluber available?
Posted: February 12, 2019, 9:18 AM Post
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mlloyd10 said:
MrTPlush said:
The fact Moose is still unsigned tells me him getting that kind of deal is not going to happen.

I don't support such a downgrade either. Losing Peralta on the pitching staff and Shaw's bat is probably killing a ton of what Kluber brings if not all. I think the downgrade from Shaw to Moose is a lot more drastic than some think. Statistically it may not be a huge difference, but having a Shaw type bat instead of Moose in our lineup is a big difference. Shaw is a lot more competent than Moose at the plate.

I think the Brewers interest in Moose is if he can be had cheap and short term. They will just employ the same logjam they did last year if/when Hiura shows up. Putting a pretty solid bat on the bench at all times.


Disagree on almost everyuting you wrote

Kluber >>>> Peralta
Shaw> Moose


Yeah, Kluber is a Cy Young candidate. Freddy is a young, inconsistent "maybe". Huge, huge difference there. Peralta could be good one day maybe. Kluber is good now.

Shaw and Moose are about as interchangable as could be. Very similar type hitters, capable of scorching hot stretches and also going ice cold for long stretches. Both lefty power hitters who you want to avoid facing tough lefty pitchers. Shaw may be a little more athletic in the field, while Moose has a stronger arm and perhaps a little better instincts, that make him likely a little better defender at 3B. Otherwise, you probably aren't going to find two MLB players more similarly matched. Shaw has the capability of putting up a little better average and OBP. Moose has a bit more power.


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Online  Re: Corey Kluber available?
Posted: February 12, 2019, 9:48 AM Post
Posts: 537
No genuine comparison between Kluber and Peralta can be made without salary being mentioned. How many wins above replacement separate the two and does it outweigh the huge cost and control disparity. Can't have a realistic discussion without that consideration.

"Kluber >>>> Peralta" is not only a gross oversimplification, it might not even be accurate assessment going forward. And that matters a whole lot more than the past.


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Offline  Re: Corey Kluber available?
Posted: February 12, 2019, 9:56 AM Post
Posts: 3611
Moustakas hit .260 vs LHP last year.
Shaw hit .209 vs LHP with a .296 SLG vs LHP. He should never (or extremely rarely) face LHP's

They are not very similar at all as hitters.

I like Kluber, but I doubt the Indians are all that serious about trading him, unless blown away by an offer.

The David Stearns era: Controllable Young Talent. Watch the Jedi work his magic!


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Offline  Re: Corey Kluber available?
Posted: February 12, 2019, 10:03 AM Post
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3and2Fastball said:
Moustakas hit .260 vs LHP last year.
Shaw hit .209 vs LHP with a .296 SLG vs LHP. He should never (or extremely rarely) face LHP's

They are not very similar at all as hitters.

I like Kluber, but I doubt the Indians are all that serious about trading him, unless blown away by an offer.


Shaw has more extreme splits obviously, but both are going to give you .250-.270 overall averages, Shaw with a little better OBP (due to better plate discipline) and Moose with a few more HRs. Moose's ability to hit lefties occasionally is a good thing, as it avoids the need to have to platoon constantly. Both are prone to extreme hot and cold streaks, though. A lineup with both Shaw and Moose sandwiching Aguilar or Braun is not a bad thing, though.


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Online  Re: Corey Kluber available?
Posted: February 12, 2019, 10:35 AM Post
Posts: 502
Location: Milwaukee
3and2Fastball said:
Moustakas hit .260 vs LHP last year.
Shaw hit .209 vs LHP with a .296 SLG vs LHP. He should never (or extremely rarely) face LHP's

They are not very similar at all as hitters.

I like Kluber, but I doubt the Indians are all that serious about trading him, unless blown away by an offer.

Shaw's career splits are 713 / 837 OPS. Much better vs RH but a 713 isn't horrible. If the guy platooning with Shaw is not better than him, then I would rather have Shaw out there vs the LH. He was respectable in 2017 with a 743 OPS vs LH.

Perez career OPS vs LH is 737 although he has been much better the last three years.


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Offline  Re: Corey Kluber available?
Posted: February 12, 2019, 10:40 AM Post
Posts: 4169
Location: New Berlin, WI
mlloyd10 said:
MrTPlush said:
The fact Moose is still unsigned tells me him getting that kind of deal is not going to happen.

I don't support such a downgrade either. Losing Peralta on the pitching staff and Shaw's bat is probably killing a ton of what Kluber brings if not all. I think the downgrade from Shaw to Moose is a lot more drastic than some think. Statistically it may not be a huge difference, but having a Shaw type bat instead of Moose in our lineup is a big difference. Shaw is a lot more competent than Moose at the plate.

I think the Brewers interest in Moose is if he can be had cheap and short term. They will just employ the same logjam they did last year if/when Hiura shows up. Putting a pretty solid bat on the bench at all times.


Disagree on almost everyuting you wrote

Kluber >>>> Peralta
Shaw> Moose


Is it more valuable to pay $20 million for a 3.0 ERA or $500k for a 3.5 ERA. If Kluber blows out his arm, we still owe him big $. If Peralta blows out his arm, sure we lose the talent but much easier to adjust with so much less $ involved. This is a super simplified example, but there is so much more to consider than simply X pitcher is better than Y pitcher.


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Offline  Re: Corey Kluber available?
Posted: February 12, 2019, 10:43 AM Post
Posts: 10070
mlloyd10 said:
MrTPlush said:
The fact Moose is still unsigned tells me him getting that kind of deal is not going to happen.

I don't support such a downgrade either. Losing Peralta on the pitching staff and Shaw's bat is probably killing a ton of what Kluber brings if not all. I think the downgrade from Shaw to Moose is a lot more drastic than some think. Statistically it may not be a huge difference, but having a Shaw type bat instead of Moose in our lineup is a big difference. Shaw is a lot more competent than Moose at the plate.

I think the Brewers interest in Moose is if he can be had cheap and short term. They will just employ the same logjam they did last year if/when Hiura shows up. Putting a pretty solid bat on the bench at all times.


Disagree on almost everyuting you wrote

Kluber >>>> Peralta
Shaw> Moose


Well I am glad you were able to explain that in a well detailed way. I think it is more like two ">" not four.

I think your offer is pretty poor though for three years of an ace. Not to mention the amount of salary you are proposing to take on is not happening. Peralta could have a major impact in the bullpen to offset a lot of what a mid-30s Kluber might do starting. And I guess we can just disagree on Moose/Shaw because I think there is a much bigger margin than one ">".

Might as well just go sign an ace or pick one up for cheap in trade due to high salary (Greinke) at that rate. Why give up Shaw, Peralta, and Ray to spend about $25mil a year? Waste of resources and money in my opinion.


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Offline  Re: Corey Kluber available?
Posted: February 12, 2019, 11:09 AM Post
Posts: 474
MrTPlush said:
mlloyd10 said:
MrTPlush said:
The fact Moose is still unsigned tells me him getting that kind of deal is not going to happen.

I don't support such a downgrade either. Losing Peralta on the pitching staff and Shaw's bat is probably killing a ton of what Kluber brings if not all. I think the downgrade from Shaw to Moose is a lot more drastic than some think. Statistically it may not be a huge difference, but having a Shaw type bat instead of Moose in our lineup is a big difference. Shaw is a lot more competent than Moose at the plate.

I think the Brewers interest in Moose is if he can be had cheap and short term. They will just employ the same logjam they did last year if/when Hiura shows up. Putting a pretty solid bat on the bench at all times.


Disagree on almost everyuting you wrote

Kluber >>>> Peralta
Shaw> Moose


Well I am glad you were able to explain that in a well detailed way. I think it is more like two ">" not four.

I think your offer is pretty poor though for three years of an ace. Not to mention the amount of salary you are proposing to take on is not happening. Peralta could have a major impact in the bullpen to offset a lot of what a mid-30s Kluber might do starting. And I guess we can just disagree on Moose/Shaw because I think there is a much bigger margin than one ">".

Might as well just go sign an ace or pick one up for cheap in trade due to high salary (Greinke) at that rate. Why give up Shaw, Peralta, and Ray to spend about $25mil a year? Waste of resources and money in my opinion.


SP's like Kluber dont come around often..Peralta is nice, but not that nice. Having Kluber, who pitched into the 7th inning in 27 of 33 starts is huge. We have to depend less on the bullpen

When you use the term "mid-30's, its making your argument look even worse..Hes 32 right now and has plenty of good season still. He's never been an overpowering SP (Avg FB in 2015 was 92.8 and last yr is was 92 )


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Offline  Re: Corey Kluber available?
Posted: February 12, 2019, 11:27 AM Post
Posts: 137
Peralta has pitched a total of 78.1 big league innings, and he is still only 21 years old (turns 22 next month). He gave up just 49 hits in those innings, and punched out 96 batters. Yeah, he was inconsistent and wild, but the guy is SUPER-young - there are going to be some growing pains. I just don't think it is wise at all to give up on a guy like that after what he showed as a rookie.


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Offline  Re: Corey Kluber available?
Posted: February 12, 2019, 11:30 AM Post
Posts: 10070
mlloyd10 said:
Having Kluber, who pitched into the 7th inning in 27 of 33 starts is huge. We have to depend less on the bullpen


You are sadly mistaken if you think anyone the Brewers get it going to be a major workhorse going 7+ often. I think they have made it pretty clear they are going to pull starters for the bullpen and trusting your starter to see a lineup a third time is just not something in the cards. While they didn't have a starter of Kluber's level last year I don't think they would dramatically change their ways for him.

I'm not really against adding Kluber, I actually would love to get him.

However trading away Shaw to spend $10mil+ on a notably worse player in Moose and then add Kluber's $17mil+ salary is really questionable how much that helps us...especially in the near future after 2019.

To be honest I think you are proposing one of the worst plans a GM can make. You want to throw all the chips into 2019 (maybe even 2020) before a game is played. All that salary will make it virtually impossible to fill any hole mid season or even next offseason without serious problems. You would have to ride or die on what we did before Game 1 of 162 and as we know things rarely go as planned and major disappointments are likely. A major injury or unplanned black hole would have no way of being fixed without using major prospect capital. It rarely ends up a good plan and handcuffs franchises severely. It reminds me of when I would play GM on MLB: The Show or another sports game and maxed out payroll before the season. It made mid season improvements impossible unless I started blowing prospects or draft picks (in Madden).

The Brewers will likely do the wise thing and even though they want to add they will wait to see how things shake out in the first half. Where they will have a better idea on what they do or don't need. This team is good as is so there is no need to panic. We should be in a good place in July or it is probably a good thing we didn't do anything in February.


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Offline  Re: Corey Kluber available?
Posted: February 12, 2019, 11:42 AM Post
Posts: 15762
Kluber is a very rare type of SP though who does not decline the 3rd time through the order. In fact, he gets stronger.

If the Brewers were to get away from short SP stints with any pitcher, Kluber would be the guy.


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Offline  Re: Corey Kluber available?
Posted: February 12, 2019, 12:28 PM Post
Posts: 474
adambr2 said:
Kluber is a very rare type of SP though who does not decline the 3rd time through the order. In fact, he gets stronger.

If the Brewers were to get away from short SP stints with any pitcher, Kluber would be the guy.


Yep - Batters are batting .196 3rd time through the order


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Offline  Re: Corey Kluber available?
Posted: February 12, 2019, 12:41 PM Post
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cesser000 said:
Peralta has pitched a total of 78.1 big league innings, and he is still only 21 years old (turns 22 next month). He gave up just 49 hits in those innings, and punched out 96 batters. Yeah, he was inconsistent and wild, but the guy is SUPER-young - there are going to be some growing pains. I just don't think it is wise at all to give up on a guy like that after what he showed as a rookie.


Freddy actually turns 23 on June 4, but I get your point. It's fun having young talented pitching, but we need to realize that young, talented pitching is the most valuable commodity to have in MLB, and if we can use some of that surplus to find high value to round out the organizational depth chart for our championship window, that is team building.


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Offline  Re: Corey Kluber available?
Posted: February 12, 2019, 12:45 PM Post
Posts: 10070
adambr2 said:
Kluber is a very rare type of SP though.


I don't think it matters how great someone is. Giving up prospects, subtracting from the current MLB roster, and crippling the payroll for the next few years (if even possible to add that much) makes this move nearly impossible. The Brewers would have to do some serious salary dumping to figure this out.

Flashy move, but probably not as big of an impact as one would dream of and how all that salary effects us midseason and beyond is likely a disaster. Remind me of the last team that maxed out or went overboard on their payroll with out serious issues soon after. Having a dead weight salary is bad enough...just imagine your entire payroll being a roadblock to any move for improvement.


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Offline  Re: Corey Kluber available?
Posted: February 12, 2019, 1:21 PM Post
Posts: 137
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
Freddy actually turns 23 on June 4


Doh! Was looking at his 'debut age' on Baseball Reference [smile]

23 years old? Get rid of the bum.


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