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Madison Bumgarner

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Offline  Re: Madison Bumgarner
Posted: December 05, 2018, 10:17 AM Post
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superfly said:
Marginally better than Chacin.....what? Chacin just had a career year and it doesn't even match up to a single year of Bumgarner's 9 full seasons.


The undervaluing of Bumgarner on this board surprises me. People bring up the park that he pitches in but remember Chacin pitched in a pitchers part too before coming to Milwaukee and it turned out pretty good for him


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Offline  Re: Madison Bumgarner
Posted: December 05, 2018, 10:19 AM Post
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superfly said:
Marginally better than Chacin.....what? Chacin just had a career year and it doesn't even match up to a single year of Bumgarner's 9 full seasons.


Check out Bumgarner's last 2 years. He's not good away from home in arguably the best pitcher park in baseball.

He strikes hitters out at a barely higher clip than Chacin, his xFIP/FIP are barely better than Chacin.

He has the repertoire to go later into the game than Chacin so I would definitely take him over Chacin but he's not that good anymore. If the Giants give him away for a few middling prospects, I'll take it. If not, pass.


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Offline  Re: Madison Bumgarner
Posted: December 05, 2018, 10:26 AM Post
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A Swing and A Drive said:
I think we are letting Woodruff's postseason heroics cloud the HUGE gap in talent between Madison Bumgarner and him.

Also pretending that MadBum is some washed up old man, when in reality, he's only 4 years older than Woodruff.


Woodruff was throwing 98 in the playoffs.

Bumgarner was throwing 91 last season (in his prime he was at 93-94).

Velocity isn't everything but I'm not paying market price for a huge risk at this point.

Maybe Bumgarner just wasn't back up to speed after his random injuries, but the Giants are asking for a big name package at this point and I'm not willing to pay it.

Maybe if the price goes down as the article suggests I'd consider it:

https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/madison ... that-much/


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Offline  Re: Madison Bumgarner
Posted: December 05, 2018, 10:28 AM Post
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I think Bumgarner makes sense as a trade target.

He is a lefty starter (we have none) & due to injury/declining results doesn't have a ton of surplus value at one year, twelve million.

Of course the Giants probably value him more highly than the market does because of his history with the team & want a larger return than is warranted.

Highest I'd probably go is Erceg & a low level flier.


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Offline  Re: Madison Bumgarner
Posted: December 05, 2018, 10:37 AM Post
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bill hAll Star said:
A Swing and A Drive said:
I think we are letting Woodruff's postseason heroics cloud the HUGE gap in talent between Madison Bumgarner and him.

Also pretending that MadBum is some washed up old man, when in reality, he's only 4 years older than Woodruff.


Woodruff was throwing 98 in the playoffs.

Bumgarner was throwing 91 last season (in his prime he was at 93-94).

Velocity isn't everything but I'm not paying market price for a huge risk at this point.

Maybe Bumgarner just wasn't back up to speed after his random injuries, but the Giants are asking for a big name package at this point and I'm not willing to pay it.

Maybe if the price goes down as the article suggests I'd consider it:

https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/madison ... that-much/


Honest question. Didnt Woodruff's velocity spike up when he went to the bullpen? How high would it be as a starter? Would he be able to maintain upper 90s or would he slip back to 93-94 range


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Offline  Re: Madison Bumgarner
Posted: December 05, 2018, 10:44 AM Post
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I think the fact the Brewers put Woodruff in a spot to have playoff heroics should tell you all you need to know about how the Brewers view Woodruff. Starting and relieving in huge spots throughout the biggest games of the season tells you they like this guy and they value him very highly.

Like has been said here before, if you can get a player like Bumgarner at a fair price for a veteran that has declined the past few seasons instead of at the price of a top of the rotation starter you try to do it. If not you turn the page


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Offline  Re: Madison Bumgarner
Posted: December 05, 2018, 10:44 AM Post
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jjfanec said:
bill hAll Star said:
A Swing and A Drive said:
I think we are letting Woodruff's postseason heroics cloud the HUGE gap in talent between Madison Bumgarner and him.

Also pretending that MadBum is some washed up old man, when in reality, he's only 4 years older than Woodruff.


Woodruff was throwing 98 in the playoffs.

Bumgarner was throwing 91 last season (in his prime he was at 93-94).

Velocity isn't everything but I'm not paying market price for a huge risk at this point.

Maybe Bumgarner just wasn't back up to speed after his random injuries, but the Giants are asking for a big name package at this point and I'm not willing to pay it.

Maybe if the price goes down as the article suggests I'd consider it:

https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/madison ... that-much/


Honest question. Didnt Woodruff's velocity spike up when he went to the bullpen? How high would it be as a starter? Would he be able to maintain upper 90s or would he slip back to 93-94 range


Yeah, he may be back to mid 90s in longer stints.

However, I do wonder if the Brewers are going to take yet another step towards full bullpen ball this year. Woodruff and Burnes may start but their outings may be shorter. So maybe we'll see closer to the upper 90s stuff.


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Offline  Re: Madison Bumgarner
Posted: December 05, 2018, 10:44 AM Post
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Madison Bumgarner is a pretentious diva who throws a hissy fit in some shape or form every time he feels even just a tad bit slighted.

It would be hard for me to not be excited about acquiring an ace starter, but Bumgarner may do it for me.


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Offline  Re: Madison Bumgarner
Posted: December 05, 2018, 10:49 AM Post
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A Swing and A Drive said:
I think we are letting Woodruff's postseason heroics cloud the HUGE gap in talent between Madison Bumgarner and him.

Also pretending that MadBum is some washed up old man, when in reality, he's only 4 years older than Woodruff.

What's this HUGE gap you speak of? Are you referring to MadBum's 2013-2016 or his 2017-2018? Because what Woodruff is capable of doing isn't HUGELY far off from that 2017-2018 production....while it's likely he doesn't match the 3.30 ERA you also have to keep in mind Bum is pitching half his games in a crazy pitcher friendly park. How many fly calls have been caught that are now gone in Miller Park? And it doesn't need to be many to shift his overall ERA from 3.30 to 3.55 (4 additional earned runs - could literally be two 2 run HR that would otherwise be caught in SF). And after just calculating that I went to his career numbers to see that he has a 3.35 ERA on the road and that includes all his dominant seasons whereas his career ERA at home is 2.7 not to mention he's given up 103HR in 842 innings on the road and 59HR in 796 innings at home - proving my point. *that's* the Bum you have to compare Woodruff too - not the guy that throws half his innings in SF.

The odds Bum is more valuable in 2019 vs Woodruff between 2019-2024 is *zero*. This is exactly why I wouldn't part with Woodruff. However, I'd absolutely target him as he'll still upgrade our staff and there are other position players and pitchers in the upper minors we can part with (not to mention MLB players as well).


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Offline  Re: Madison Bumgarner
Posted: December 05, 2018, 10:56 AM Post
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Most divas I know don't go after rattlesnakes with an axe and then nurse back to health the baby bunny rabbits still alive inside. lol

https://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2016/4/16/11443590/madison-bumgarner-snake-rabbit-story-vin-scully-holy-wow


BTW, Brandon Woodruff will never be an ACE of a MLB rotation.

Madison Bumgarner has the pedigree of not only an MLB ACE, but an elite ACE with Hall of Fame level talent with the ability to take his game up a notch during the playoffs. Some great pitchers like Clayton Kershaw do not have this special gear in them. Also, in spite of his dip in numbers from his last two injury plagued seasons, the dude is still only 29 years of age.

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Online  Re: Madison Bumgarner
Posted: December 05, 2018, 12:23 PM Post
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bill hAll Star said:
superfly said:
Marginally better than Chacin.....what? Chacin just had a career year and it doesn't even match up to a single year of Bumgarner's 9 full seasons.


Check out Bumgarner's last 2 years. He's not good away from home in arguably the best pitcher park in baseball.

He strikes hitters out at a barely higher clip than Chacin, his xFIP/FIP are barely better than Chacin.

He has the repertoire to go later into the game than Chacin so I would definitely take him over Chacin but he's not that good anymore. If the Giants give him away for a few middling prospects, I'll take it. If not, pass.


I think saying that Bumgarner is “not that good anymore” is a little bit of a stretch. He would immediately be our number 1. He isn’t the pitcher he used to be, but maintaining being a top 5 pitcher in baseball for an entire career isn’t really sustainable. I think it’s safe to say he’s still a top 15-20 pitcher in the game and that’s pretty valuable.


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Offline  Re: Madison Bumgarner
Posted: December 05, 2018, 12:30 PM Post
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I just don't see Stearns trading away much in value for a 1-year run with Mad Bum. Maybe he's somebody we would target at the deadline for a 3 month rental, when the price would hopefully go down a bit. But, if the Giants are asking for any of Burnes, Hiura or Woody in return - then I can't imagine we'd be interested.


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Offline  Re: Madison Bumgarner
Posted: December 05, 2018, 1:06 PM Post
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I guess I don't put Woodruff on the same tier as Hiura and Burnes, so that's why I'd be willing to have him headline a trade from MadBum. Honestly, if he stays a Brewers, he might be the most valuable if we keep him in the bullpen. His stuff seemed to play up a bit in shorter outings, IMO.

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Offline  Re: Madison Bumgarner
Posted: December 05, 2018, 1:35 PM Post
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madtownhawk said:
Is it just me, or does Morosi just seem to throw our name into some of these reports without much actual knowledge that we've really been involved? It's almost like he's thinking "hey, the Brewers need SP help and are looking to compete in 2019," so let's throw them into this tweet about an available SP - even though I have no idea if they are seriously involved in discussions with this team.


If they do need starting pitching help, that help is likely to come from Brown/Supak being called up or with Woodruff/Peralta/Burnes sliding from the pen (or AAA).

I do not see the Crew trading for a pitcher unless it is on very favorable terms.


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Offline  Re: Madison Bumgarner
Posted: December 05, 2018, 3:11 PM Post
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adambr2 said:
Madison Bumgarner is a pretentious diva who throws a hissy fit in some shape or form every time he feels even just a tad bit slighted.

It would be hard for me to not be excited about acquiring an ace starter, but Bumgarner may do it for me.


former ace...


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Offline  Re: Madison Bumgarner
Posted: December 05, 2018, 3:36 PM Post
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Just like Justin Verlander was a "former ace" in 2017.

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Offline  Re: Madison Bumgarner
Posted: December 05, 2018, 3:46 PM Post
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Combined 2016-17 stats for Chase Anderson, Madison Bumgarner & Jhoulys Chacin

CA: 7.85 K9 2.95 BB9 1.32 HR9 3.37 ERA (80 ERA-) 4.45 FIP (105 FIP-) 299 IP
MB: 7.85 K9 2.36 BB9 1.16 HR9 3.29 ERA (82 ERA-) 3.97 FIP (101 FIP-) 240 IP
JC: 7.46 K9 3.45 BB9 0.89 HR9 3.69 ERA (89 ERA-) 4.14 FIP (99 FIP-) 373 IP


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Offline  Re: Madison Bumgarner
Posted: December 05, 2018, 3:48 PM Post
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if we can get Baumgarner I would love the move as long it didn't include Burnes Perelta or Hiura


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Offline  Re: Madison Bumgarner
Posted: December 05, 2018, 3:57 PM Post
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jjfanec said:
Honest question. Didnt Woodruff's velocity spike up when he went to the bullpen? How high would it be as a starter? Would he be able to maintain upper 90s or would he slip back to 93-94 range

Perhaps, but there were a number of reports from the minors when he was at AA/A+ that he was hitting 96-98 in the 6th inning or later. When you are getting yanked back and forth between AAA and the majors, and the pen and the rotation, I don't know how you can measure consistency. You have to have a consistent role first. Sometimes when these guys get called up it's on short notice and they are on really early flights, don't get much sleep, are anxious about pitching in the majors, etc., which can all affect performance.

Speaking of pitcher-friendly parks, not only does Bumgarner have a pitcher-friendly home park he also pitches many road games in other pitcher-friendly road parks (San Diego and Los Angeles) due to the unbalanced schedule. He also pitches a lot of road games in hitter-friendly parks (Colorado, Arizona), so that may balance out.


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Offline  Re: Madison Bumgarner
Posted: December 05, 2018, 4:02 PM Post
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A Swing and A Drive said:
Just like Justin Verlander was a "former ace" in 2017.


Anyone calling Verlander a former ace when he was traded wan't paying attention, he was coming off a Cy Young runner up season in 2016 & had posted another 4.7 WAR with Detroit in 2017 before he was traded.

From 2016 to 2017 (pre trade) Verlander posted...

9.68 K9 2.79 BB9 1.19 HR9 3.38 ERA (79 ERA-) 3.74 FIP (85 FIP-) 399 IP

Those are massive edges in both strikeouts & innings over what Bumgarner has done the last two years.

Verlander also had 2/56 left on his contract & a full no trade clause when he was dealt, which is quite a bit different than 1/12 for Bumgarner with a partial NTC.


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