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Brandon Woodruff

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Offline  Re: Brandon Woodruff
#41

Posted: November 28, 2018, 8:31 PM Post
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Is anyone else excited to have 3 potential young stud starters in Woodruff,Perelta and Burnes. I don't know when i been more excited about a brewers rotation.


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Online  Re: Brandon Woodruff
#42

Posted: November 28, 2018, 8:37 PM Post
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brewmann04 said:
Is anyone else excited to have 3 potential young stud starters in Woodruff,Perelta and Burnes. I don't know when i been more excited about a brewers rotation.


I remember being pretty excited by the prospect of having Sheets and Gallardo at the top of the rotation, but that didn't exactly work out the way I had hoped. They ended up barely overlapping. I don't remember a time when they had three potential young solid rotation members that were basically home grown. Having too many solid rotation options is a pretty foreign feeling for a Brewer fan.


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Offline  Re: Brandon Woodruff
#43

Posted: November 28, 2018, 8:47 PM Post
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Having a plethora of strong rotation options is normally what other teams have, not the Brewers.

Woodruff, Burnes, and Peralta didn't get a lot of big-time love on a national scale for the majority of their ascent through the minors, but they've proven themselves quite well and I'm so glad they're part of our cache of good, young arms.


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Online  Re: Brandon Woodruff
#44

Posted: November 28, 2018, 9:29 PM Post
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Location: Milwaukee
MNBrew said:
Having a plethora of strong rotation options is normally what other teams have, not the Brewers.

Woodruff, Burnes, and Peralta didn't get a lot of big-time love on a national scale for the majority of their ascent through the minors, but they've proven themselves quite well and I'm so glad they're part of our cache of good, young arms.
I think you have to go back to 1987. Wegman, Nieves, Bosio + Higuera (older but a solid #1). Plesac and Crim in the bullpen. Don August, Knudsen and Birkbeck were up and coming. Unfortunately all that talent still did not get us to the world series.


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Offline  Re: Brandon Woodruff
#45

Posted: November 28, 2018, 9:38 PM Post
Posts: 3621
Location: Madison, WI
Yes, this is a first for my lifetime. Discussing which of our 3 really good young pitching prospects would be most expendable if we haaaad to trade one. I don't think there's even been 3 guys total other teams would've coveted in my life, haha. Yes, I'm sure (I think) that I'm exaggerating.


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Online  Re: Brandon Woodruff
#46

Posted: November 28, 2018, 10:05 PM Post
Posts: 482
Location: Milwaukee
[quote="ClosetBrewerFan"I think you have to go back to 1987. Wegman, Nieves, Bosio + Higuera (older but a solid #1). Plesac and Crim in the bullpen. Don August, Knudsen and Birkbeck were up and coming. Unfortunately all that talent still did not get us to the world series.[/quote]
Just looking through the team stats during those years. Most of those pitchers missed considerable time or were inconsistent over the next 5 years. At least 2 or 3 per year were out/ineffective. The Brewers never surrounded that team with any significant free agents or major trades. They just went with the kids.

I've been struggling with whether I want the Brewers to trade some young pitching to go for it now. The last few times the brewers got to the playoffs they made major acquisitions (Sabathia, Grienke, Yelich/Cain) and last year they kept adding throughout the year. I would hate to give up young pitching, but it is very inconsistent. Unfortunately, I think we may have to in order to continue to push for the playoffs.


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Offline  Re: Brandon Woodruff
#47

Posted: November 28, 2018, 10:53 PM Post
Posts: 2613
ClosetBrewerFan said:
MNBrew said:
Having a plethora of strong rotation options is normally what other teams have, not the Brewers.

Woodruff, Burnes, and Peralta didn't get a lot of big-time love on a national scale for the majority of their ascent through the minors, but they've proven themselves quite well and I'm so glad they're part of our cache of good, young arms.
I think you have to go back to 1987. Wegman, Nieves, Bosio + Higuera (older but a solid #1). Plesac and Crim in the bullpen. Don August, Knudsen and Birkbeck were up and coming. Unfortunately all that talent still did not get us to the world series.

Of those, Nieves was by far supposed to be the biggest deal but arguably did the least other than his no-hitter. Higuera was a stud until injuries shelved him and afterward undercut his effectiveness, though overall he was a really awesome Brewer.

Looking back, that Trebelhorn era was better than we may have realized at the time. Only 1 season in 5 with a losing record. Decent teams with lots of good players. Too bad those young pitchers didn't all live up to their promise, esp. at the same time!


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Offline  Re: Brandon Woodruff
#48

Posted: December 02, 2018, 9:03 AM Post
Posts: 497
Location: Milwaukee
True Blue Brew Crew said:
Then you're not paying attention. Peralta is thrown in just about every trade proposal on this forum. It's very clear that he's undervalued and misunderstood here. That's not a created narrative. You think passing word from scouts that Peralta is special would get people excited but that hasn't been the case. I can also pass along third-hand word (Brewers scout to scout to me) that Peralta is going nowhere. The Brewers know what they have.

Posts pondering Peralta for MadBum as a possibility are so far off the mark and that's why I comment and share what I know.

Except *this* isn't what you're saying. You're fabricating evidence and lying about trivial nonsense to put Peralta on a pedestal because your Uncle is an ex-scout and you take his *opinion* as gold.

Examples: my post laying out your lies on the Woodruff/Peralta thread. This thread - Woodruff isn't 4yrs older than Peralta. He's 3yrs 3 months and 20 some odd days older. The difference between reality and 4yrs is literally an additional full season's worth of experience.

Regarding prospect rankings, Peralta absolutely was on the radar during Woodruff's peak status (43-62 ranking mid-2017/pre-2018). Peralta already had a very good A then ever better A+ (mid-2017) then even better AA (pre-2018) while being 2-3yrs young for level and he made *zero* Top 100. Woodruff's peak prospect status is literally the same time frame when Peralta blew up. And those pub rankings are heavily influenced by *active* scouts opinions. On the opinion side, I disagree Woodruff's age puts him on a tier below Peralta as they both have 6yrs control, especially considering one of them (Peralta) still has control issues and needs to develop consistency with his secondary pitches while the other (Woodruff) is essentially a finished product with good control.

You also stated on this thread that *both* of Peralta's fastballs (same fourseam grip on both) are thrown *equally*. Except there's *zero* evidence to back that claim.

Now on to varying success going through the lineup multiple times. In the first 7 of Woodruff's 8 starts to end 2017 he averaged between 5.2 - 6 innings per start, with a 1.23 whip and 3.76 era, not to mention his entire minor league career as a rotation arm on top of that. In 2018 he was shuffled nonstop between the rotation/pen and AAA/MLB so he rarely had a consistent role until the final month of the season and playoffs. There's gaps with his pitching dates and amount of pitches because in order for his role to work they needed to limit what he can do at times.

In the meantime, Peralta was a starter all year and 5 of his 14 MLB starts he threw between 3 - 4.1 innings with a 6th start going 6 innings giving up 7er (if they didn't need him to eat up innings so badly he would've been pulled at 4.2 innings giving up 6er, if not sooner). So you don't question Peralta at all going multiple times through the order based on *half* of his MLB starts this year but you definitively state Woodruff can't? Peralta has proven success but Woodruff doesn't?

(Side note for people saying Woodruff hasn't proven anything as a starter and reference his overall line - in 10 of his 12 MLB starts he's combined to post 53.1ip, 43h, 21er, 21bb, 43k, 3.54 era, 1.2 whip and that doesn't include his 2 starts in the playoffs this year where he combined 8.1ip, 5h, 3er, 2bb, 11k.....all these young guys are going to get roughed up here and there and Woodruff did vs CO this year and his 8th/final start in STL the year before and those 2 games alone ballooned the living beep out of his numbers. Woodruff has been more consistent with his starts, including playoffs, than Peralta has).

On this thread you said Peralta improved his BB9 from 4.2 to 1.3 on his *rapid ascent*. False. That happened in 2014/2015 when he was in Rookie ball and repeating levels has nothing to do with improving control. What level one's at, who's standing in the box, etc has no impact on one's control.

And no, it isn't "very common" for players to improve control. Control literally makes and breaks careers and the past 2yrs Peralta has been between 4-5 BB9 at each level A+ and up. The reality is if he doesn't improve his BB9 rate to upper-3 or better at the MLB level he's going to continue to be inconsistent and not reach his potential. Look at the rotation arms with 20+ starts this year who had the most BBs and see how well the vast, vast majority of them performed. Peralta had a 1.3 in Rookie ball then a 3.6 in A but he's been 4-5 BB9 since. He can improve on where he's been because he's had decent control earlier in his career but to brush it off as if it's not a concern and there's no risk with him moving forward in absurd.

And I say all this believing Peralta has better stuff and a higher ceiling than Woodruff but he has control issues right now that shouldn't be easily dismissed. Dude had a 4.6 BB9 in MLB throwing his fastball 78% of the time. That's absolutely brutal. His control will determine if he's great or if he's Teheran (AS caliber one year and average the next).


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Online  Re: Brandon Woodruff
#49

Posted: December 02, 2018, 10:13 AM Post
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Humans Need Water said:
True Blue Brew Crew said:
Then you're not paying attention. Peralta is thrown in just about every trade proposal on this forum. It's very clear that he's undervalued and misunderstood here. That's not a created narrative. You think passing word from scouts that Peralta is special would get people excited but that hasn't been the case. I can also pass along third-hand word (Brewers scout to scout to me) that Peralta is going nowhere. The Brewers know what they have.

Posts pondering Peralta for MadBum as a possibility are so far off the mark and that's why I comment and share what I know.

Except *this* isn't what you're saying. You're fabricating evidence and lying about trivial nonsense to put Peralta on a pedestal because your Uncle is an ex-scout and you take his *opinion* as gold.

Examples: my post laying out your lies on the Woodruff/Peralta thread. This thread - Woodruff isn't 4yrs older than Peralta. He's 3yrs 3 months and 20 some odd days older. The difference between reality and 4yrs is literally an additional full season's worth of experience.

Regarding prospect rankings, Peralta absolutely was on the radar during Woodruff's peak status (43-62 ranking mid-2017/pre-2018). Peralta already had a very good A then ever better A+ (mid-2017) then even better AA (pre-2018) while being 2-3yrs young for level and he made *zero* Top 100. Woodruff's peak prospect status is literally the same time frame when Peralta blew up. And those pub rankings are heavily influenced by *active* scouts opinions. On the opinion side, I disagree Woodruff's age puts him on a tier below Peralta as they both have 6yrs control, especially considering one of them (Peralta) still has control issues and needs to develop consistency with his secondary pitches while the other (Woodruff) is essentially a finished product with good control.

You also stated on this thread that *both* of Peralta's fastballs (same fourseam grip on both) are thrown *equally*. Except there's *zero* evidence to back that claim.

Now on to varying success going through the lineup multiple times. In the first 7 of Woodruff's 8 starts to end 2017 he averaged between 5.2 - 6 innings per start, with a 1.23 whip and 3.76 era, not to mention his entire minor league career as a rotation arm on top of that. In 2018 he was shuffled nonstop between the rotation/pen and AAA/MLB so he rarely had a consistent role until the final month of the season and playoffs. There's gaps with his pitching dates and amount of pitches because in order for his role to work they needed to limit what he can do at times.

In the meantime, Peralta was a starter all year and 5 of his 14 MLB starts he threw between 3 - 4.1 innings with a 6th start going 6 innings giving up 7er (if they didn't need him to eat up innings so badly he would've been pulled at 4.2 innings giving up 6er, if not sooner). So you don't question Peralta at all going multiple times through the order based on *half* of his MLB starts this year but you definitively state Woodruff can't? Peralta has proven success but Woodruff doesn't?

(Side note for people saying Woodruff hasn't proven anything as a starter and reference his overall line - in 10 of his 12 MLB starts he's combined to post 53.1ip, 43h, 21er, 21bb, 43k, 3.54 era, 1.2 whip and that doesn't include his 2 starts in the playoffs this year where he combined 8.1ip, 5h, 3er, 2bb, 11k.....all these young guys are going to get roughed up here and there and Woodruff did vs CO this year and his 8th/final start in STL the year before and those 2 games alone ballooned the living beep out of his numbers. Woodruff has been more consistent with his starts, including playoffs, than Peralta has).

On this thread you said Peralta improved his BB9 from 4.2 to 1.3 on his *rapid ascent*. False. That happened in 2014/2015 when he was in Rookie ball and repeating levels has nothing to do with improving control. What level one's at, who's standing in the box, etc has no impact on one's control.

And no, it isn't "very common" for players to improve control. Control literally makes and breaks careers and the past 2yrs Peralta has been between 4-5 BB9 at each level A+ and up. The reality is if he doesn't improve his BB9 rate to upper-3 or better at the MLB level he's going to continue to be inconsistent and not reach his potential. Look at the rotation arms with 20+ starts this year who had the most BBs and see how well the vast, vast majority of them performed. Peralta had a 1.3 in Rookie ball then a 3.6 in A but he's been 4-5 BB9 since. He can improve on where he's been because he's had decent control earlier in his career but to brush it off as if it's not a concern and there's no risk with him moving forward in absurd.

And I say all this believing Peralta has better stuff and a higher ceiling than Woodruff but he has control issues right now that shouldn't be easily dismissed. Dude had a 4.6 BB9 in MLB throwing his fastball 78% of the time. That's absolutely brutal. His control will determine if he's great or if he's Teheran (AS caliber one year and average the next).


Terrific post! He is 100% creating a narrative, and not only gets ultra defensive when questioned on it, or when someone disagrees, he gets extremely condescending. Then when questioned on that, he accuses others of creating drama. It's turned this board very negative lately.

I agree on Peralta as well. I think he has a higher upside than Woodruff, but probably a lower floor as well. Also, if you view the Brewers as having a 3 year window of World Series contention, it can be argued that Woodruff's age and experience makes him a better fit to be a high-end contributor during that window. That could be 100% wrong, but just looking at how both were used during the stretch this year, that appears to be the direction they are headed.

As for trading one of them, I think Peralta is more likely, but that is more based on his age than anything. Because he is younger and has already shown the ability to get MLB hitters out, it is likely his trade value is substantially higher than Woodruff's in a potential blockbuster-type deal (which are the ONLY type of deals Peralta's name is coming up in).


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Offline  Re: Brandon Woodruff
#50

Posted: December 02, 2018, 12:34 PM Post
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The Woodruff/Peralta discussion has been a very interesting one so far, so let's dial back the agitation toward each other. Please make a genuine effort to keep things civil. Thanks.

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Offline  Re: Brandon Woodruff
#51

Posted: December 02, 2018, 1:22 PM Post
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brewmann04 said:
Is anyone else excited to have 3 potential young stud starters in Woodruff,Perelta and Burnes. I don't know when i been more excited about a brewers rotation.



1986..Having Teddy Higuera in the rotation with Tim Leary, Bill Wegman, Juan Nieves, and Chris Bosio coming up.


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Offline  Re: Brandon Woodruff
#52

Posted: December 02, 2018, 2:55 PM Post
Posts: 2613
The Brewers have a little history with once-highly-touted Mets pitching prospects. Tim Leary was the first. Bill Pulshipher was the next. Syndergaard the next? Based on precedent, if the Brewers get him, it's hard not to anticipate a flame-out sooner than later.


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Offline  Re: Brandon Woodruff
#53

Posted: December 05, 2018, 5:21 PM Post
Posts: 2757
True Blue Brew Crew said:
ZBTMP said:
There are certainly a reasonable probability that he becomes a productive major leaguer that make him valuable, but he has warts that will not be fixed with age.


Lol, control is the only thing holding him back from being completely dominant. You're definitively saying a 22 year old with MLB success under his belt can't fix that as he progresses? I'll continue listening to the scout.



I disagree. I think his lack of velocity is holding him back from being "completely dominant," as is a viable 3rd pitch.

He's an undersized right hander with average velocity and only 2 pitches. I don't think anyone one area of improvment is going to make him an ace in the near future.

I'm not saying that he can't add a really nice change or work on a 2nd breaking ball, but simply improving his command(more command than control, but both are issues) will not place him atop a rotation.


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Offline  Re: Brandon Woodruff
#54

Posted: December 05, 2018, 6:49 PM Post
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I think Woodruff could absolutely be the centerpiece to bring back a good player. I'd consider him on the same tier as Peralta trade value wise. Personally I think he'll end up with the better overall career.


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Offline  Re: Brandon Woodruff
#55

Posted: December 05, 2018, 7:03 PM Post
Posts: 1368
I agree I think people are underestimating Woodruff because he isn't highly ranked. He was outstanding in the playoffs, performing on the big stage is big in my book.


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Offline  Re: Brandon Woodruff
#56

Posted: December 05, 2018, 7:47 PM Post
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Where do you guys rank Woodruff, Peralta, Burnes in comparison to Luke Weaver?


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Online  Re: Brandon Woodruff
#57

Posted: December 05, 2018, 7:59 PM Post
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amt2138 said:
Where do you guys rank Woodruff, Peralta, Burnes in comparison to Luke Weaver?


I'd go Burnes, Woodruff, Weaver, Peralta, in that order. But I think Peralta might just have the most upside, if that makes any sense. I rank him lowest because I think he has the most bust potential. In my mind, Peralta and Weaver should be very similarly ranked value-wise.


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Offline  Re: Brandon Woodruff
#58

Posted: December 06, 2018, 10:39 AM Post
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Burnes, Peralta, Weaver, Woodruff

I'd say Burnes has the highest floor and Peralta has the highest ceiling.

Both Weaver and Woodruff are solid bets to be mid-rotation starters given where they are at in their development.

Both 25 and 2014 Draft Picks (Weaver, 1st rd, Woodruff, 11th rd), if you look at their minor league numbers it will be clear why I rank Weaver higher.

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Offline  Re: Brandon Woodruff
#59

Posted: December 06, 2018, 10:43 AM Post
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A Swing and A Drive said:
Burnes, Peralta, Weaver, Woodruff

I'd say Burnes has the highest floor and Peralta has the highest ceiling.

Both Weaver and Woodruff are solid bets to be mid-rotation starters given where they are at in their development.


I would argue that Burnes has the highest floor and the highest ceiling, but I'm higher on him than most. I'd probably go Burnes, Woodruff, Weaver, Peralta...with Peralta having a higher ceiling than the other 2. Peralta is a bit polarizing as a prospect though, what makes him good is so unusual.


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Offline  Re: Brandon Woodruff
#60

Posted: December 06, 2018, 10:48 AM Post
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Other than being a Brewer, I'm curious on why posters think Woodruff should be ranked ahead of Weaver?

Weaver was universally more well thought of coming out of college and has put up better career minor league numbers at the same age/levels.

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