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Dallas Keuchel

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Offline  Re: Dallas Keuchel
Posted: May 10, 2019, 9:22 AM Post
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It's so exhausting to me when people compare athletes to factory workers and lament they should be grateful for making so much money because so many struggle. They are living in a different universe. There is nothing wrong with them saying "pass" because they don't think the offer is right. They're free to be delusional about it if they want. If you had already banked millions you'd have the same privilege. They don't have to accept a club's best offer is it's not up to snuff.


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Offline  Re: Dallas Keuchel
Posted: May 10, 2019, 11:08 AM Post
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OldSchoolSnapper said:
It's so exhausting to me when people compare athletes to factory workers and lament they should be grateful for making so much money because so many struggle. They are living in a different universe. There is nothing wrong with them saying "pass" because they don't think the offer is right. They're free to be delusional about it if they want. If you had already banked millions you'd have the same privilege. They don't have to accept a club's best offer is it's not up to snuff.

Couldn't agree more. It's just so much wasted energy harboring feelings of envy or anger for people more fortunate than yourself. I'm not sure how anyone can be a fan of sports and then turn around and complain about how much their salaries are.

I'm sure this seems obvious but these guys aren't just trying to set up their own life, they're trying to set up their family for generations to come. The smart ones are anyway. There's no shame in that. Most everyone here would do the exact same thing in their position.


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Offline  Re: Dallas Keuchel
Posted: May 11, 2019, 1:50 AM Post
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OldSchoolSnapper said:
It's so exhausting to me when people compare athletes to factory workers and lament they should be grateful for making so much money because so many struggle. They are living in a different universe. There is nothing wrong with them saying "pass" because they don't think the offer is right. They're free to be delusional about it if they want. If you had already banked millions you'd have the same privilege. They don't have to accept a club's best offer is it's not up to snuff.



Agreed. The average person is the average person for a reason. They're not among the best in the world and working in an extremely exclusive group which creates 11 billion dollars of revenue.

It just comes off as bitter. And there are plenty of reasons for people to feel that way, plenty of ways people can be wronged just feels like wasted energy. If you're one of the best in the world at anything, you get paid like it. You're likely to be very very rich.


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Offline  Re: Dallas Keuchel
Posted: May 11, 2019, 7:56 AM Post
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I don't think that people who make negative comments about player salaries feel bitter or wronged.

I think it's hard for the average person to understand that kind of greed once we are talking about millions and millions of dollars.

Makes sense for a teacher, cop, ditch digger to look at a guy making 10 million dollars a year, and complaining about only getting 10 million dollars a year, when that same average person pulls in 40 grand a year.

I don't personally care how much athletes make, but I can surely understand why others think it's absurd.


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Online  Re: Dallas Keuchel
Posted: May 11, 2019, 9:00 AM Post
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It doesn't bother me at all when athletes put a price on themselves and stick to it. If they choose not to play for the price they want, that's totally their choice and I don't begrudge them for that choice or call them greedy for it.

Relating a rich athlete or rich star of any kind to an average person, the only time it becomes a bit eye rolling for me is when they start throwing around phrases like "can't feed my family" or "slave mentality".

Anyone with a net worth of even $5M dollars has the option to live a modest life and never work again. If they choose to live above those means, that's totally their choice, but I certainly don't feel bad for the ones who manage to squander it all and end up as average persons themselves.

On that note, I wish all professional sports leagues were offering education on personal finance management and placing a heavy emphasis on it.


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Offline  Re: Dallas Keuchel
Posted: May 11, 2019, 9:35 AM Post
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I'd be interested in the 'metrics' that Dallas is using to calculate a projected contract for an aging pitcher with a 90 mph fastball that had a WHIP approaching 1.4 last year. If he sticks to his guns, he's not going to throw another pitch in MLB, and if he thinks the QO is handcuffing him, he's delusional.


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Offline  Re: Dallas Keuchel
Posted: May 13, 2019, 8:54 AM Post
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turborickey said:
I don't think that people who make negative comments about player salaries feel bitter or wronged.

I think it's hard for the average person to understand that kind of greed once we are talking about millions and millions of dollars.

Makes sense for a teacher, cop, ditch digger to look at a guy making 10 million dollars a year, and complaining about only getting 10 million dollars a year, when that same average person pulls in 40 grand a year.

I don't personally care how much athletes make, but I can surely understand why others think it's absurd.



It's only greed in the public court when it's the athlete asking for more money. When it is the owner shaving a few million off the top, that's just kind of swept under the rug, because nobody is watching the owner on game day. I think they should all get theirs. I typically side with players when they're trying to extract money from people who would cut all ties at the first broken bone if they could. Much the way I think average people should look out for themselves and never feel loyalty to employers who'd lay them off to raise EPS 1/10th of a cent.


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Offline  Re: Dallas Keuchel
Posted: May 13, 2019, 1:00 PM Post
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OldSchoolSnapper said:
turborickey said:
I don't think that people who make negative comments about player salaries feel bitter or wronged.

I think it's hard for the average person to understand that kind of greed once we are talking about millions and millions of dollars.

Makes sense for a teacher, cop, ditch digger to look at a guy making 10 million dollars a year, and complaining about only getting 10 million dollars a year, when that same average person pulls in 40 grand a year.

I don't personally care how much athletes make, but I can surely understand why others think it's absurd.



It's only greed in the public court when it's the athlete asking for more money. When it is the owner shaving a few million off the top, that's just kind of swept under the rug, because nobody is watching the owner on game day. I think they should all get theirs. I typically side with players when they're trying to extract money from people who would cut all ties at the first broken bone if they could. Much the way I think average people should look out for themselves and never feel loyalty to employers who'd lay them off to raise EPS 1/10th of a cent.


If there was a like button I'd click it for this post.


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Offline  Re: Dallas Keuchel
Posted: May 13, 2019, 6:58 PM Post
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Jon Heyman said on the Big Time Baseball podcast Monday that the Rays "are looking at" Dallas Keuchel.

The Rays have previously been connected to Craig Kimbrel, as well, and Heyman believes the club will "seriously" consider both pitchers once they no longer have draft pick compensation attached to them after next month's Draft. Heyman has also reported previously that the Yankees will be interested in Keuchel after the Draft and he reiterated that Monday. The left-hander posted a 3.74 ERA over 34 starts with the Astros last season.

Source: Jon Heyman on Twitter

May 13, 2019, 8:49 PM ET


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Offline  Re: Dallas Keuchel
Posted: May 14, 2019, 8:23 AM Post
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adambr2 said:
It doesn't bother me at all when athletes put a price on themselves and stick to it. If they choose not to play for the price they want, that's totally their choice and I don't begrudge them for that choice or call them greedy for it.

Relating a rich athlete or rich star of any kind to an average person, the only time it becomes a bit eye rolling for me is when they start throwing around phrases like "can't feed my family" or "slave mentality".

Anyone with a net worth of even $5M dollars has the option to live a modest life and never work again. If they choose to live above those means, that's totally their choice, but I certainly don't feel bad for the ones who manage to squander it all and end up as average persons themselves.

On that note, I wish all professional sports leagues were offering education on personal finance management and placing a heavy emphasis on it.



The feed my family one is particularly annoying. The other one can be absolutely infuriating depending on how it's used. There are times I actually understand the point they're trying to make(moreso in the NFL, but in sports in general). Not when it comes to them negotiating a contract and wanting more money.

And to be honest, I actually do feel bad for the ones who have a lot of money and end up squandering it. The Antoine Walker's. It depends on a multitude of factors, but there are a lot of players who just simply did not get the education needed to know how to invest, they don't understand the taxes and other extreme financial burdens that come with them, if you're a young kid, you often have a lot of adults taking advantage of you, not to mention a lot of friends. This happens even more in the black community if they're coming from poverty.

I realize logically, it's foolish for me to worry about athletes who had that much, but still, in my mind, having that much and losing it without having a college degree or a skill other than the sport you were good has to be really depressing.

Now, of course, these leagues have pension plans where you can start getting more than the average person gets in their pension plan if they've worked for 30 years in your 40's or you can wait and get a couple of hundred K a year if you wait for the normal age of retirement...


I agree with your last line very strongly and I know most leagues, the NFL for example, they do try to do that. And some agents are even better about it, but still, they can't control your money.


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Offline  Re: Dallas Keuchel
Posted: May 14, 2019, 8:44 AM Post
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OldSchoolSnapper said:
turborickey said:
I don't think that people who make negative comments about player salaries feel bitter or wronged.

I think it's hard for the average person to understand that kind of greed once we are talking about millions and millions of dollars.

Makes sense for a teacher, cop, ditch digger to look at a guy making 10 million dollars a year, and complaining about only getting 10 million dollars a year, when that same average person pulls in 40 grand a year.

I don't personally care how much athletes make, but I can surely understand why others think it's absurd.



It's only greed in the public court when it's the athlete asking for more money. When it is the owner shaving a few million off the top, that's just kind of swept under the rug, because nobody is watching the owner on game day. I think they should all get theirs. I typically side with players when they're trying to extract money from people who would cut all ties at the first broken bone if they could. Much the way I think average people should look out for themselves and never feel loyalty to employers who'd lay them off to raise EPS 1/10th of a cent.




Excellent post. I could not agree with you more.

I'd also add that people seem to conflate "value" with "importance." Christian Yelich isn't more important than a good teacher, Very few things in the world are more important than a really good teacher who motivates you. But not only is it difficult to rank a teacher, but it's also just simple economics. Teachers, as important as they are(or Cops, your FD, whatever it may be) simply don't bring in 11 billion dollars to be divided up among the 1200 people(just using 40 man roster and 30 teams for the easiest number).

I think you nailed it though, the biggest reason why players get bashed while owners don't is because you can see the players fail on the baseball field.


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Offline  Re: Dallas Keuchel
Posted: May 14, 2019, 8:58 AM Post
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I think the 'family to feed' stuff is just a figure of speech players use to be succinct about why there is a contract dispute. It's just another way of saying "I'm looking out for #1."

The owners get to play good cop and just say "we offered $20 million that's a lot" which is a much more sympathetic angle for fans.


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Online  Re: Dallas Keuchel
Posted: May 14, 2019, 10:28 AM Post
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The thing I wonder about is if the nature of negotiations have changed recently with analytics seemingly playing a large part in teams determining player value. Are teams less willing to engage in back-and-forth negotiations because they feel like they better know what a players value is than perhaps they did before? Are they more willing go to players and say "This is what we are willing to pay based on projected future performance, but this is our best offer"?

If things have changed over the last several years, I totally get why players, especially those who are still unsigned, feel like they aren't being negotiated with. If someone thinks they have a certain value and potential employers are continually telling them they don't think they are worth that much, that is difficult to take regardless of profession or the money involved.

I guess there have always been differences in opinion regarding player values, so this isn't new. What does seem to be new, or maybe more common than it has been, is that both sides are more willing to stick to their guns. Keuchel thinks his services have a certain value, and right now teams don't agree. I don't think Keuchel is wrong to wait for a contract he thinks is fair, and I don't think teams are wrong for not signing him long-term because they fear the last few years of his contract could be really bad for the team. I don't think either side should feel compelled into an agreement they aren't comfortable with. I'm not sure what the solution is; I am inclined to think there isn't one.


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Offline  Re: Dallas Keuchel
Posted: May 14, 2019, 3:13 PM Post
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Location: New Berlin, WI
It's really easy to say "well someone should pay him what he wants...he deserves it". None of the 30 teams want to stand up and be that team. I am always so curious to know the truth in these cases as to what he's turning down. Not what one side or the other spills to the media...but the truth. I don't think we'll know much until he signs and even then we likely won't get the definitive truth.


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Offline  Re: Dallas Keuchel
Posted: May 15, 2019, 6:46 AM Post
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I don't think anybody thinks some team is liable to pay him what he wants, just that it's his prerogative to say "nah I'm good" if it's not what he wants. I kind of liken it to a contractor that gives a ridiculous quote for a job he really doesn't want to do. People will look at it and go "This is a rip off," well if the guy doesn't need the work, that's what an annoying job is worth to him.


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Offline  Re: Dallas Keuchel
Posted: May 15, 2019, 7:33 AM Post
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OldSchoolSnapper said:
I don't think anybody thinks some team is liable to pay him what he wants, just that it's his prerogative to say "nah I'm good" if it's not what he wants. I kind of liken it to a contractor that gives a ridiculous quote for a job he really doesn't want to do. People will look at it and go "This is a rip off," well if the guy doesn't need the work, that's what an annoying job is worth to him.


Totally agree, as long as that contractor doesn't gripe about not getting the work and complain he's not getting what he deserves if he's got unrealistic expectations. If you want to stick with comparisons, I'd almost compare Keuchel and Kimbrel's current situations to a realtor around 2010 listing a house that's in good condition but with significant maintenance costs a couple years down the road (needs a roof, water heater, new furnace), and they base the listing price on spring 2006 assessments and wonder why nobody's chomping at the bit to buy it.


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Offline  Re: Dallas Keuchel
Posted: May 15, 2019, 8:48 AM Post
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Location: Madison, WI
Keith Law posted a 2009 re-draft on ESPN's website, and since I don't have access to it, I went through and looked at the bWAR for all the players that signed that were taken in the first 30 rounds. BTW, the Brewers picked 26th in that draft and the 26th highest bWAR so far in that draft belongs to Enrique Hernandez. I'm guessing he'd be a fairly anonymous player to most Brewer fans if not for that home run he hit off Hader earlier this season.

But the other interesting thing that I noticed was.
Dallas Keuchel = 18.3 bWAR
Patrick Corbin = 14.2 bWAR

Which brings into question:
Patrick Corbin = 6 years, 140 million dollars
Dallas Keuchel = far, far less

With two pretty obvious reasons for what has happened:
Dallas Keuchel = 31 years, 134 days old as of today
Patrick Corbin = 29 years, 300 days old as of today
Dallas Keuchel = 6.7 K/9 in 2018
Patrick Corbin = 11.1 K/9 in 2018

IMO that should be real valuable information for agents moving forward.

Also worth noting that the Nationals may be the biggest disappointment in all of MLB so far. Only 1/4 of the way through the season, and a lot can change, but as if this morning they have a record that is only 1.5 games ahead of the Royals and Orioles. A bit of evidence in there that Stearns more and more obvious approach of making big investments in bats and let the pitching sort itself out is the smart way to go.


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Offline  Re: Dallas Keuchel
Posted: May 15, 2019, 10:30 PM Post
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JosephC said:
Keith Law posted a 2009 re-draft on ESPN's website, and since I don't have access to it, I went through and looked at the bWAR for all the players that signed that were taken in the first 30 rounds. BTW, the Brewers picked 26th in that draft and the 26th highest bWAR so far in that draft belongs to Enrique Hernandez. I'm guessing he'd be a fairly anonymous player to most Brewer fans if not for that home run he hit off Hader earlier this season.

But the other interesting thing that I noticed was.
Dallas Keuchel = 18.3 bWAR
Patrick Corbin = 14.2 bWAR

Which brings into question:
Patrick Corbin = 6 years, 140 million dollars
Dallas Keuchel = far, far less

With two pretty obvious reasons for what has happened:
Dallas Keuchel = 31 years, 134 days old as of today
Patrick Corbin = 29 years, 300 days old as of today
Dallas Keuchel = 6.7 K/9 in 2018
Patrick Corbin = 11.1 K/9 in 2018

IMO that should be real valuable information for agents moving forward.

Also worth noting that the Nationals may be the biggest disappointment in all of MLB so far. Only 1/4 of the way through the season, and a lot can change, but as if this morning they have a record that is only 1.5 games ahead of the Royals and Orioles. A bit of evidence in there that Stearns more and more obvious approach of making big investments in bats and let the pitching sort itself out is the smart way to go.



I don't think a bad start by the Nats is evidence of anything. Corbin's been outstanding, their problem is their bullpen is one of the worst in decades. That and Trea Turner, their best player has been out, Rendon and Soto have dealt with injuries.

I don't see how you argue that them spending money on starting pitching, legit aces for that matter has been the problem. Their pitching is why they were expected to be so good and they've delivered. It's not as if they signed pitchers like Darvish and haven't gotten anything out of them. Give them a solid BP and keep their stars healthy and they're fine.

This certainly isn't advocating a signing of Keuchel, but I do think the Corbin signing. Their real problem was the fact that they didn't do anything about that pen. A lefty with good stuff who can get strikeouts who loses their velocity can at least turn into a Keuchel type. A lefty who's already throwing in the upper 80's loses any more and where do you go from there? There's not a lot of successful starters who throw 86-87. Certainly not TOR types.


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Offline  Re: Dallas Keuchel
Posted: May 15, 2019, 10:40 PM Post
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OldSchoolSnapper said:
I think the 'family to feed' stuff is just a figure of speech players use to be succinct about why there is a contract dispute. It's just another way of saying "I'm looking out for #1."

The owners get to play good cop and just say "we offered $20 million that's a lot" which is a much more sympathetic angle for fans.



I also really haven't heard that many players say this. I think this stands out because of Latrell Spreewell turning down a huge contract at the time(3/21 IIRC) and using that phrase.

I haven't even heard many baseball players use it.

The real issue isn't what Keuchel thinks, it's the complaints you heard from other players talking about how it doesn't make sense that Kimbrel and Keuchel aren't signed yet.


From a fans perspective, I don't get why we have to pick out one or the other as a bad guy though. The owners are billionaires. That still doesn't mean a team should overpay for a players services. The players want what they feel like they're worth. That's important no matter what line of work you're in. I left a job for another for less money because I didn't feel like I was being valued fairly, hoping I'd make up for it at the new job eventually and I was. But being angry while working somewhere feeling like you're worth more than they're paying you isn't a good fit for either side. It's just most of us have to suck it up and don't have millions in the bank to be able to act on it.


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