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Giants Relievers...

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Offline  Giants Relievers...
#1

Posted: March 26, 2019, 11:58 PM Post
Posts: 624
Given our recent injury concerns that have left both of our top right handers from last years dominant BP up in the air and the likely 15+ million that Craig Kimbrel would require, I was looking at the Giants as they seem like a team that may be looking to move relievers as it's unlikely they'll contend this year(they're likely the 5th best team in the West).

Corey Ray is coming off a bounce back year, has been a top 100 prospect and has huge upside.

Would he be worth trading for Reyes Moronta, a young power arm whom we'd control for 5 years plus Will Smith OR Tony Watson?

I don't like the idea of giving up Ray, but I like the idea of going into the year with no SU man or closer. You could plug Moronta and Smith into those roles and leave Hader and the rest of the pen in the roles they were expected to be in prior to the injuries. What's more, if Knebel, who looks like he's headed for TJ surgery, but has apparently been dealing with a UCL issue since 2014 in Texas and Jeffress who's situation might look even worse at the moment DO come back, the pen could be absolutely loaded with two elite left handed relievers and 3 elite power right handers at the back of the pen.


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Offline  Re: Giants Relievers...
#2

Posted: March 27, 2019, 11:25 AM Post
Posts: 494
I like the idea of getting one of the Giants relievers. There really isn't a spot for Ray. Although he put up great numbers last year in AA, he is still struggling mightly to make consistent contact. He doesn't really have a spot in the Milwaukee OF for the next couple of years (he wont be supplanting Braun, Yelich, or Cain or now we control Gamel for 4 years. I just don't know how other teams view Corey Ray...


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Offline  Re: Giants Relievers...
#3

Posted: March 27, 2019, 1:10 PM Post
Posts: 3891
Location: Madison, WI
IDK, Braun is only signed through 2020. That timing could line up really well for Ray if he continues to progress to take Braun's spot. Plus obviously with Brauns injuries/rest some call up could happen prior to 2021 to get his feet wet. I'm not a Ray mega fan or anything, I essentially have no opinion on him. Just saying Braun isn't here that much longer plus if doesn't perform well this year (like last year) his hold on a full time spot becomes very weak.

to the Giants relievers, yes I agree these are great guys to target. One thing that pops into my head is some of the new guys added this year I don't think have the options to go down so you might be locked in a bit, but note I'm not an expert on the rules there so...


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Offline  Re: Giants Relievers...
#4

Posted: March 27, 2019, 1:15 PM Post
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Posts: 6353
tmwiese55 said:
IDK, Braun is only signed through 2020. That timing could line up really well for Ray if he continues to progress to take Braun's spot. Plus obviously with Brauns injuries/rest some call up could happen prior to 2021 to get his feet wet. I'm not a Ray mega fan or anything, I essentially have no opinion on him. Just saying Braun isn't here that much longer plus if doesn't perform well this year (like last year) his hold on a full time spot becomes very weak.

to the Giants relievers, yes I agree these are great guys to target. One thing that pops into my head is some of the new guys added this year I don't think have the options to go down so you might be locked in a bit, but note I'm not an expert on the rules there so...


My hope is that by the time Braun is ready to either hang them up or move on, Tristen Lutz will be ready. He profiles as a prototypical RF, which would allow Yelich to play his more natural LF. I really like Ray, but he's playing his age 24 year, and there isn't much of a path to regular playing time on the Brewers, barring injury, until Braun's contract is up.


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Offline  Re: Giants Relievers...
#5

Posted: March 28, 2019, 5:41 AM Post
Posts: 772
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
tmwiese55 said:
IDK, Braun is only signed through 2020. That timing could line up really well for Ray if he continues to progress to take Braun's spot. Plus obviously with Brauns injuries/rest some call up could happen prior to 2021 to get his feet wet. I'm not a Ray mega fan or anything, I essentially have no opinion on him. Just saying Braun isn't here that much longer plus if doesn't perform well this year (like last year) his hold on a full time spot becomes very weak.

to the Giants relievers, yes I agree these are great guys to target. One thing that pops into my head is some of the new guys added this year I don't think have the options to go down so you might be locked in a bit, but note I'm not an expert on the rules there so...


My hope is that by the time Braun is ready to either hang them up or move on, Tristen Lutz will be ready. He profiles as a prototypical RF, which would allow Yelich to play his more natural LF. I really like Ray, but he's playing his age 24 year, and there isn't much of a path to regular playing time on the Brewers, barring injury, until Braun's contract is up.


I think when Stearns drafted ray he thought he was getting a better hit tool, since that’s not the case, I look for Ray to be part of a package at some point. Stearns has moved on from the high k power outfielder no matter how Athletic he is. Thank goodness.


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Offline  Re: Giants Relievers...
#6

Posted: March 28, 2019, 5:51 AM Post
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I think the Brewers should save Corey Ray as a trade chip for a better deadline target. I also believe Ray could increase his trade stock with a solid start to season in the minors.

Speaking of Giant relievers, Brewers might be able to land a player like Mark Melancon for basically nothing and even have Giants kick in money to cover some of his contract.

I know he’s not the same pitcher he was, but he could bridge gap until either Jeffress or Knebel are healthy.

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Offline  Re: Giants Relievers...
#7

Posted: March 28, 2019, 6:44 AM Post
Posts: 239
The Brewers 4th OF should play a lot and I don't see Gamel as much of a block to Ray. Plus we would still be selling low on Ray in my opinion. I wouldn't make that sort of trade now, lets see what we have in the bullpen and give Ray a shot to boost his value. If he continues to struggle to hit he still has power and speed and could always be a valuable 4th guy in the majors.


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Offline  Re: Giants Relievers...
#8

Posted: March 28, 2019, 10:46 AM Post
Posts: 3100
OldHeidelberg said:
The Brewers 4th OF should play a lot and I don't see Gamel as much of a block to Ray. Plus we would still be selling low on Ray in my opinion. I wouldn't make that sort of trade now, lets see what we have in the bullpen and give Ray a shot to boost his value. If he continues to struggle to hit he still has power and speed and could always be a valuable 4th guy in the majors.



I actually think we're selling high on Ray. He had a big bounce back year last year. If we wait, he may improve his value. He may also revert back to the sub .700 OPS guy that he's been at every other level he's been at rather than the 801 OPS he posted last year.

Plus, with Ray, is his value really going to improve in AAA? He's pretty close to losing most of his value. If he has a so-so year, he becomes less of a prospect and more of a 4th OF candidate. I think the window to trade Ray is closing pretty quickly.

In this scenario, at least you get two really talented power relievers.


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Offline  Re: Giants Relievers...
#9

Posted: March 28, 2019, 10:53 AM Post
Posts: 3100
A Swing and A Drive said:
I think the Brewers should save Corey Ray as a trade chip for a better deadline target. I also believe Ray could increase his trade stock with a solid start to season in the minors.

Speaking of Giant relievers, Brewers might be able to land a player like Mark Melancon for basically nothing and even have Giants kick in money to cover some of his contract.

I know he’s not the same pitcher he was, but he could bridge gap until either Jeffress or Knebel are healthy.



I get the logic here, but you're saying lets wait and see what issues we have at the trade deadline and address them using one of our biggest trade pieces in Corey Ray. The problem with that is we KNOW what our biggest problem right now is, we're covered just about everywhere else, even catcher, and why wait half a season to address what you know is a problem already?

I'd be good with bringing in Melancon and seeing if he can have a bounce back year. But the two guys originally mentioned(3 if you debate Watson vs Smith) are guys who you could instantly plug into the pen, the young guy we control for 5 years and profiles as a elite back of the BP arm with a upper 90's fastball and he's seen success in the big leagues and we all know what Will Smith is capable of.


Finally, every team has their 25 man pretty much set right now. At the trade deadline, you'll have more teams selling, but everyone is going to be looking for relievers who can come in and get 10-12 K's per 9 innings. That's usually the most searched for commodity at the deadline. We make this trade now and you're not bidding against other teams who will inevitably suffer injuries. Or a stupid team like Pitt last year who went out and made that awful deal for Archer because they took 5 in a row from us before the deadlinel

If we still had Wahl and a guy like Barnes who hadn't already shown he's not a great big league pitcher, I'd be more on board with giving them a shot. But we're likely going to see Wilson in high leverage situations and THAT is not a good thing if you want to be competitive.


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Online  Re: Giants Relievers...
#10

Posted: March 28, 2019, 10:54 AM Post
Posts: 16052
HiAndTight said:
OldHeidelberg said:
The Brewers 4th OF should play a lot and I don't see Gamel as much of a block to Ray. Plus we would still be selling low on Ray in my opinion. I wouldn't make that sort of trade now, lets see what we have in the bullpen and give Ray a shot to boost his value. If he continues to struggle to hit he still has power and speed and could always be a valuable 4th guy in the majors.



I actually think we're selling high on Ray. He had a big bounce back year last year. If we wait, he may improve his value. He may also revert back to the sub .700 OPS guy that he's been at every other level he's been at rather than the 801 OPS he posted last year.

Plus, with Ray, is his value really going to improve in AAA? He's pretty close to losing most of his value. If he has a so-so year, he becomes less of a prospect and more of a 4th OF candidate. I think the window to trade Ray is closing pretty quickly.

In this scenario, at least you get two really talented power relievers.


Well, it could go either way. Seems like forever ago, but Ray was a top 5 pick and the preferred pick by many to go 1st overall, and was ranked among the top 30 prospects in baseball at midseason after he was picked.

Suppose he leads the PCL in HRs and SBs and bats. 260-.270, all plausible, I could see him recovering most of his initial value.


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Offline  Re: Giants Relievers...
#11

Posted: March 28, 2019, 11:13 AM Post
Posts: 772
HiAndTight said:
A Swing and A Drive said:
I think the Brewers should save Corey Ray as a trade chip for a better deadline target. I also believe Ray could increase his trade stock with a solid start to season in the minors.

Speaking of Giant relievers, Brewers might be able to land a player like Mark Melancon for basically nothing and even have Giants kick in money to cover some of his contract.

I know he’s not the same pitcher he was, but he could bridge gap until either Jeffress or Knebel are healthy.



I get the logic here, but you're saying lets wait and see what issues we have at the trade deadline and address them using one of our biggest trade pieces in Corey Ray. The problem with that is we KNOW what our biggest problem right now is, we're covered just about everywhere else, even catcher, and why wait half a season to address what you know is a problem already?

I'd be good with bringing in Melancon and seeing if he can have a bounce back year. But the two guys originally mentioned(3 if you debate Watson vs Smith) are guys who you could instantly plug into the pen, the young guy we control for 5 years and profiles as a elite back of the BP arm with a upper 90's fastball and he's seen success in the big leagues and we all know what Will Smith is capable of.


Finally, every team has their 25 man pretty much set right now. At the trade deadline, you'll have more teams selling, but everyone is going to be looking for relievers who can come in and get 10-12 K's per 9 innings. That's usually the most searched for commodity at the deadline. We make this trade now and you're not bidding against other teams who will inevitably suffer injuries. Or a stupid team like Pitt last year who went out and made that awful deal for Archer because they took 5 in a row from us before the deadlinel

If we still had Wahl and a guy like Barnes who hadn't already shown he's not a great big league pitcher, I'd be more on board with giving them a shot. But we're likely going to see Wilson in high leverage situations and THAT is not a good thing if you want to be competitive.


IF NL goes according to plan, gonna potentially be 11 buyers, it’s gonna really hurt to add good pitching this year in all likelihood.


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Offline  Re: Giants Relievers...
#12

Posted: March 28, 2019, 11:36 AM Post
Posts: 3100
adambr2 said:
HiAndTight said:
OldHeidelberg said:
The Brewers 4th OF should play a lot and I don't see Gamel as much of a block to Ray. Plus we would still be selling low on Ray in my opinion. I wouldn't make that sort of trade now, lets see what we have in the bu
llpen and give Ray a shot to boost his value. If he continues to struggle to hit he still has power and speed and could always be a valuable 4th guy in the majors.



I actually think we're selling high on Ray. He had a big bounce back year last year. If we wait, he may improve his value. He may also revert back to the sub .700 OPS guy that he's been at every other level he's been at rather than the 801 OPS he posted last year.

Plus, with Ray, is his value really going to improve in AAA? He's pretty close to losing most of his value. If he has a so-so year, he becomes less of a prospect and more of a 4th OF candidate. I think the window to trade Ray is closing pretty quickly.

In this scenario, at least you get two really talented power relievers.




Well, it could go either way. Seems like forever ago, but Ray was a top 5 pick and the preferred pick by many to go 1st overall, and was ranked among the top 30 prospects in baseball at midseason after he was picked.

Suppose he leads the PCL in HRs and SBs and bats. 260-.270, all plausible, I could see him recovering most of his initial value.



Of course, his value could absolutely go higher. I think getting that BA up and K rate down are the two big things the Brewers and other teams are looking at hoping Ray can do.

And I understand...he was basically regarded just a run or two below where Hirura is right now, but as you know, he fell off pretty hard and then bounced back.


I like Ray and I don't like the idea of giving up a talented young athlete like him, especially when he could be taking Braun's spot in the next year or two, but I think he's got a big bust potential and while he hasn't regained all the value he once had, he's regained a good amount of it.

On the flip side of that argument, what if he gets banged up, and then starts out hitting .200 and striking out 33 pct of the time? Meanwhile what if Inigo Montoya does what a lot of 26 year old flame throwers with plus-plus fastballs do after having a good first year in the big leagues and he starts to dominate....maybe he's not even available at the deadline? 5 years of team control.

I guess you'd be putting a ton of faith into him being a consistently dominant high leverage reliever for you though if you're giving up Ray.



At the very least, I'm DEFINITELY trying to pry away Will Smith from them. Offer that Phil Bickford guy....see if they bite!


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Offline  Re: Giants Relievers...
#13

Posted: March 28, 2019, 11:42 AM Post
Posts: 772
The problem is if I was a potential selling team like the Giants at the deadline I wouldn’t make any trades right now I’d wait till then and extort.


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Offline  Re: Giants Relievers...
#14

Posted: March 28, 2019, 11:46 AM Post
Posts: 239
HiAndTight said:
OldHeidelberg said:
The Brewers 4th OF should play a lot and I don't see Gamel as much of a block to Ray. Plus we would still be selling low on Ray in my opinion. I wouldn't make that sort of trade now, lets see what we have in the bullpen and give Ray a shot to boost his value. If he continues to struggle to hit he still has power and speed and could always be a valuable 4th guy in the majors.



I actually think we're selling high on Ray. He had a big bounce back year last year. If we wait, he may improve his value. He may also revert back to the sub .700 OPS guy that he's been at every other level he's been at rather than the 801 OPS he posted last year.

Plus, with Ray, is his value really going to improve in AAA? He's pretty close to losing most of his value. If he has a so-so year, he becomes less of a prospect and more of a 4th OF candidate. I think the window to trade Ray is closing pretty quickly.

In this scenario, at least you get two really talented power relievers.


To be fair I am not that familiar with the primary target in the proposed trade other than his stats, I guess it could be good value for Ray. But my general impression is that Ray does not get credit for being the toolsy CF prospect he is, at least going by the fact that no one has him in a top 100 list right now. There are a lot of teams that could use an .800 OPS above average defensive CF but I feel like right now his trade value is closer to the 4th OF candidate you think he may become than a top prospect. If they are going to sacrifice his potential ceiling it shouldn't be a knee jerk decision like this would feel. Like I say I disagree he isn't needed here, we just traded Broxton and his floor is a left handed Broxton which isn't all that bad. He is not next man up right now due to his 40 man status but if Cain were to go down long term I think he would be up in a hurry.


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Offline  Re: Giants Relievers...
#15

Posted: March 28, 2019, 12:11 PM Post
Posts: 3100
OldHeidelberg said:

To be fair I am not that familiar with the primary target in the proposed trade other than his stats, I guess it could be good value for Ray. But my general impression is that Ray does not get credit for being the toolsy CF prospect he is, at least going by the fact that no one has him in a top 100 list right now. There are a lot of teams that could use an .800 OPS above average defensive CF but I feel like right now his trade value is closer to the 4th OF candidate you think he may become than a top prospect. If they are going to sacrifice his potential ceiling it shouldn't be a knee jerk decision like this would feel. Like I say I disagree he isn't needed here, we just traded Broxton and his floor is a left handed Broxton which isn't all that bad. He is not next man up right now due to his 40 man status but if Cain were to go down long term I think he would be up in a hurry.



I may not have been clear. I like Ray. I don't think he's neccesarily sloted for a 4th OF role. He was a truly elite college prospect. Those guys are rare. And I don't know much about the other guy not named Will Smith(or Tony Watson) either. I just saw the name, saw the FB velocity, his numbers and that scouting reports said he could be a closer.


As for Ray, if he can just cut down on the K's, put a few more balls in play and leg them out, he could be a 2-3 WAR player for the Brewers. I just see him as hit or miss and assuming the Brewers are high on the young pitcher mentioned and like his scouting report, I'd be willing to overpay in this case for the two relievers only because of the Brewers situation. I'm sure Ray has more "surplus value," than these two pitchers...as much as I don't like using that to place value on players because I think it's something hardcore fans do more than any actual team. I'd just hate to see the Brewers with a good young starting rotation, a all star catcher, a great lineup and then see their strength from last year turn into their weakness...as is the case with every other Brewers fan.


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Offline  Re: Giants Relievers...
#16

Posted: March 28, 2019, 12:17 PM Post
Posts: 3100
Brew crew 92 said:
The problem is if I was a potential selling team like the Giants at the deadline I wouldn’t make any trades right now I’d wait till then and extort.



I don't think that's a problem because I doubt the Giants would even consider this if they got a trade they felt was a good value now.

Pitchers value can drop in a BIG hurry. I'm sure Corey Knebel and Jeremy Jeffress would have netted the Brewers a top 15 prospect in baseball a week ago.

If you're the Giants, why do you want to wait if you plan on trading for young, controllable players anyway in your rebuild process? Maybe Smith gets hurt again as he has been in SF and the younger pitcher struggles to find the zone. Then you have nothing to trade.

You see trades all throughout the season. There's no rule that says teams have to wait until the last minute. You just see more teams waiting to seeif they've comeptitive or not.


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Offline  Re: Giants Relievers...
#17

Posted: March 28, 2019, 5:23 PM Post
Posts: 772
HiAndTight said:
Brew crew 92 said:
The problem is if I was a potential selling team like the Giants at the deadline I wouldn’t make any trades right now I’d wait till then and extort.



I don't think that's a problem because I doubt the Giants would even consider this if they got a trade they felt was a good value now.

Pitchers value can drop in a BIG hurry. I'm sure Corey Knebel and Jeremy Jeffress would have netted the Brewers a top 15 prospect in baseball a week ago.

If you're the Giants, why do you want to wait if you plan on trading for young, controllable players anyway in your rebuild process? Maybe Smith gets hurt again as he has been in SF and the younger pitcher struggles to find the zone. Then you have nothing to trade.

You see trades all throughout the season. There's no rule that says teams have to wait until the last minute. You just see more teams waiting to seeif they've comeptitive or not.


Work out something with the giants NOW please > tonight before this or any team see’s how bad our closing options(outside of Hader) pitch. No panic, just a dose of reality after watching a real game, and like Counsell, dreading the idea of any pen arm outside of Hader closing these games out. Am I the only one honest enough to admit We should be more than just concerned?


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Offline  Re: Giants Relievers...
#18

Posted: March 28, 2019, 5:51 PM Post
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Posts: 6353
Brew crew 92 said:
HiAndTight said:
Brew crew 92 said:
The problem is if I was a potential selling team like the Giants at the deadline I wouldn’t make any trades right now I’d wait till then and extort.



I don't think that's a problem because I doubt the Giants would even consider this if they got a trade they felt was a good value now.

Pitchers value can drop in a BIG hurry. I'm sure Corey Knebel and Jeremy Jeffress would have netted the Brewers a top 15 prospect in baseball a week ago.

If you're the Giants, why do you want to wait if you plan on trading for young, controllable players anyway in your rebuild process? Maybe Smith gets hurt again as he has been in SF and the younger pitcher struggles to find the zone. Then you have nothing to trade.

You see trades all throughout the season. There's no rule that says teams have to wait until the last minute. You just see more teams waiting to seeif they've comeptitive or not.


Work out something with the giants NOW please > tonight before this or any team see’s how bad our closing options(outside of Hader) pitch. No panic, just a dose of reality after watching a real game, and like Counsell, dreading the idea of any pen arm outside of Hader closing these games out. Am I the only one honest enough to admit We should be more than just concerned?


Honest? I'd say this is freaking out.


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Offline  Re: Giants Relievers...
#19

Posted: March 28, 2019, 5:56 PM Post
Posts: 772
Honest!! Am I the only one honest enough to say our closing options are the worst in mlb.


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Offline  Re: Giants Relievers...
#20

Posted: March 28, 2019, 5:59 PM Post
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Posts: 6353
Brew crew 92 said:
Honest!! Am I the only one honest enough to say our closing options are the worst in mlb.


You know something we don't about Jeffress? Because all indicates are that he'll be back in two-three weeks.


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