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Giants Relievers...

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#61

Posted: April 02, 2019, 6:05 AM Post
Posts: 753
I’d leave rotation alone, pitch em out of rotation til innings become a concern. Then to bullpen. I’d put Nelson in pen to protect his arm, if he’s protected like Hader with rest, he can be our right handed fireman this year.


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#62

Posted: April 02, 2019, 6:13 AM Post
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Brew crew 92 said:
I’d leave rotation alone, pitch em out of rotation til innings become a concern. Then to bullpen. I’d put Nelson in pen to protect his arm, if he’s protected like Hader with rest, he can be our right handed fireman this year.


Nelson is coming off over a year of no pitching, and has been building up and working toward taking the ball every five days ever since he starting throwing pen sessions last fall. He's also been a starter his whole career. The idea that working out of the pen is less taxing on an arm I believe is a fallacy. Getting up and warming quickly, often several times a week, can be extremely taxing on arms and, in Nelson's case, core joints. The last thing I'd want to do is put him in the pen with the expectation that he make several 3-4 appearances a week in a fireman role. And if you'r going to pitch him sparingly out of the pen to protect his arm, he may as well not even be on the team. If this team has proven anything in its 5 games so far, its that all their relievers are going to be used often.


Last edited by Joey Meyer Bombs on April 02, 2019, 6:14 AM, edited 1 time in total.

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#63

Posted: April 02, 2019, 6:14 AM Post
Posts: 753
OnTheBlack said:
JosephC said:
Brew crew 92 said:

I think your right, their bullpen worse than ours.


No kidding, how bad has the Brewer bullpen so far?

NL ranks-
ERA = 5th (3.57)
FIP = 3rd (0.96)
OPS against = 2nd (.590)



Is this another Aprils Fools? Using the BP's stats after 5 games? 3 of which for the record Hader has pitched in as our closer, which I'd assume we can ALL agree is not ideal?

The Brewers have played well. They still need to address their pen earlier than later.

Like I've said over and over. I also will say again I trust CC and Stearns to figure it out.


An awful lot hinges on how effective jeffress is, first 60 innings of last yr jj would buy time til past super2, maybe even trade deadline. While an ineffective jj......I also trust stearns and Counsell to figure it out though.


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#64

Posted: April 02, 2019, 6:22 AM Post
Posts: 753
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
Brew crew 92 said:
I’d leave rotation alone, pitch em out of rotation til innings become a concern. Then to bullpen. I’d put Nelson in pen to protect his arm, if he’s protected like Hader with rest, he can be our right handed fireman this year.


Nelson is coming off over a year of no pitching, and has been building up and working toward taking the ball every five days ever since he starting throwing pen sessions last fall. He's also been a starter his whole career. The idea that working out of the pen is less taxing on an arm I believe is a fallacy. Getting up and warming quickly, often several times a week, can be extremely taxing on arms and, in Nelson's case, core joints. The last thing I'd want to do is put him in the pen with the expectation that he make several 3-4 appearances a week in a fireman role. And if you'r going to pitch him sparingly out of the pen to protect his arm, he may as well not even be on the team. If this team has proven anything in its 5 games so far, its that all their relievers are going to be used often.


Ok but maybe it’s gonna take a while for him to strengthen the arm, to build up to 90-100 pitches. Could take longer than the month some think till ready. It could be months with another setback. Jimmy didn’t sound too concerned so maybe your right. When is he supposed to start throwing again?


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#65

Posted: April 02, 2019, 6:30 AM Post
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Brew crew 92 said:
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
Brew crew 92 said:
I’d leave rotation alone, pitch em out of rotation til innings become a concern. Then to bullpen. I’d put Nelson in pen to protect his arm, if he’s protected like Hader with rest, he can be our right handed fireman this year.


Nelson is coming off over a year of no pitching, and has been building up and working toward taking the ball every five days ever since he starting throwing pen sessions last fall. He's also been a starter his whole career. The idea that working out of the pen is less taxing on an arm I believe is a fallacy. Getting up and warming quickly, often several times a week, can be extremely taxing on arms and, in Nelson's case, core joints. The last thing I'd want to do is put him in the pen with the expectation that he make several 3-4 appearances a week in a fireman role. And if you'r going to pitch him sparingly out of the pen to protect his arm, he may as well not even be on the team. If this team has proven anything in its 5 games so far, its that all their relievers are going to be used often.


Ok but maybe it’s gonna take a while for him to strengthen the arm, to build up to 90-100 pitches. Could take longer than the month some think till ready. It could be months with another setback. Jimmy didn’t sound too concerned so maybe your right. When is he supposed to start throwing again?


They had him built up to 60 with a week to go in Arizona. They haven't given any indication that he won't be starting the season in the San Antonio rotation, and their season starts Thursday. It would be nice to know what their timeline is, but it's possible they may not know for sure. I imagine it's all going to depend on how he looks and, more importantly, how he recovers between starts. How bad will the residual soreness be? If he makes his first start this weekend and is on a 60-75 pitch limit, there's no reason why he wouldn't be able to continue building with an eye on making his 2019 Brewers debut by the end of April. It wouldn't surprise me if they'd want to avoid pitching him in cold-weather games, as those can be tougher to get joints loose and break up that scar tissue in his shoulder. I don't think they would have announced him as a member of the Missions if they weren't planning on him getting work from the get-go though.


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#66

Posted: April 02, 2019, 6:46 AM Post
Posts: 753
I hope your right on Nelson, be great to see him pitching out of the rotation again. Nelson can replace Davies, unless peralta command doesn’t improve.


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#67

Posted: April 02, 2019, 6:51 AM Post
Posts: 1669
HiAndTight said:

But again, even if he is...you have to believe he's going to perform like he did last year, that shoulder won't become an issue again, and then you're still dealing with the giant hole Knebel is leaving.


Burnes and Woodruff are leaving a pretty big hole too. Bullpen fortunes are whimsical and they could revamp the pen quickly, but the Brewers are on the wrong end of things in a big way right now IMO. Honestly though I think they just have to weather the storm until closer to the trade deadline, cliche as that may sound. They should be able to score a lot of runs.


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#68

Posted: April 02, 2019, 7:44 AM Post
Posts: 239
OnTheBlack said:
Joey Meyer Bombs said:

Plus whoever is pulled from the rotation once Nelson is inserted.



I'm trying to think who would be the best option. I don't like the idea of any of them being pulled from the rotation. Burnes certainly seems like he'd be the best reliever. He was effectively a RH'ed Hader late last year, but he does have 4 pitches and the upside to make him an ace(I'd argue all 3 young arms could be low end aces or #2, though they're still a long way away from that). It'll almost certainly be one of them, probably Woodruff as I don't think Davies is much more valuable in the pen.

Really excited to see how this team has jumped out to a 4-1 start though with the bad news that came right before the season started.


I don't think the decision will be based on who could be the best reliever, rather who is the worst starter. I would be surprised if that was Burnes or Woodruff, seems like Davies going into the season but watching one time though the rotation Peralta could be an option as well. I think it is few weeks out yet for Nelson anyway, by then someone could be injured or the decision could look like an easy one.


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#69

Posted: April 02, 2019, 7:53 AM Post
Posts: 2289
Location: Milwaukee, WI
There is a lot in this thread but a few things jump out
Knebel is definitely leaving a hole but Woodruff and Burnes. Eh, maybe a little. Woodruff pitched 12 times before Sept 1 of last year, I guess to me that isn't much of a hole. He was barely in our bullpen. (Plus of those 12, 8 of them were for 2 or more innings, meaning he was just a long man.) Corbin Burnes pitched 2 times before the all-star break last year. Then he became a key guy. Another way to look at last years pen: Jennings and Barnes had more outings than both of them combined. Matt Albers is a bounce back candidate, just look at his history. Stearns will find a guy who will excel into a late inning option, he always does. And Hader in the 9th, why not? Sure, we like him going 2, 3 innings but I also like the Aroldis Chapman in him that when he is in, it's pretty much lights out. But at the end of the day, if Jeffress can come back strong, it gives Counsel options as I don't want a "9th" inning guy or an "8th inning guy" - I want out getters and when their meat of the order is coming up and you need outs, Hello Josh.


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#70

Posted: April 02, 2019, 10:31 AM Post
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Bombers said:
There is a lot in this thread but a few things jump out
Knebel is definitely leaving a hole but Woodruff and Burnes. Eh, maybe a little. Woodruff pitched 12 times before Sept 1 of last year, I guess to me that isn't much of a hole. He was barely in our bullpen. (Plus of those 12, 8 of them were for 2 or more innings, meaning he was just a long man.) Corbin Burnes pitched 2 times before the all-star break last year.


When people talk about how great the pen was last year, they are talking about after the stretch run. Saying Burnes and Woodruff weren't there before the stretch run does nothing to diminish how important they were in making the bullpen the strength of a championship contender last year. The bullpen was struggling before Knebel returned in top form and Woodruff/Burnes joined the pen. They were in danger of missing the playoffs completely before the bullpen took over in August/September. It's totally fair to say they lost Woodruff and Burnes from the bullpen, because the bullpen was the positive difference in a lot of wins last year and they contributed to many of them.


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#71

Posted: April 02, 2019, 10:48 AM Post
Posts: 3891
Location: Madison, WI
Along with that as much as we all rip on Albers and Barnes the second half. They were very good for stretches in the first half. When they struggled they got replaced by others such as Burnes/Woodruff but that was all a factor. The key point to it all is the bullpen was extremely deep all year where you could for the most part trust almost everyone up on the major league rosters. Exceptions being as guys tailed off and had a few bad outings before being demoted. Whereas right now we only have 1 guy we can trust and don't have the depth like last year. Pretty much gritting our teeth with everyone else right now but hopefully guys step up along with JJ coming back.


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#72

Posted: April 02, 2019, 11:18 AM Post
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Last year was really the story of 2 different teams driven by 2 different performance profiles. The first Brewers team started the first month+ with a 31-19 record and finished the last 35 games with a 26-9 record. The second Brewers team was a 0.500 ballclub for 3 months. The early outstanding record and the end were driven by an excellent run by the bullpen and the 26-9 run was a combination of lights out bullpen and a much better offense. The 0.500 team was mostly a function of an extended offensive drought mostly driven by 3-4 black holes at the bottom of the lineup. When the offense got better from the addition of Mouse and improved performance from Pina, Braun and Yelich, the bullpen was struggling. Once the bullpen stabilized and Yelich became a God then the team went on an absolute tear. What's different this year is those black holes are gone from day 1 and Yelich seems to have retained his super powers. Those factors make it less of a crisis to panic about the current makeup of the bullplen. In addition, the SP will likely outperform last years group making the reliance on the bullpen less. If Albers continues to be good Albers (and there's some data to support his struggles were injury related last year), a bullpen with Albers, Jeffress and Hader handling 6+ thru 9 on many days with Claudio in LH heavy situations, I don't have a problem relying on Junior, Chase, Jacob, and Taylor to fill roles for the team. Will they have bad stretches? of course, but we have a better rotation and a much better offense. Relax. We're the first dominant performance from Jeffress away from having a very good team and we're 4-1! Yeah!

JosephC said:
Stearns probably had no interest in getting a C because the Brewers need a C. It makes much more sense to trade for 3B when it's not needed, and then move the other 3B to 2B, then trade for a 2B, but since the 3B is now at 2B, then the new 2B goes to SS


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#73

Posted: April 02, 2019, 11:43 AM Post
Posts: 753
xisxisxis said:
Last year was really the story of 2 different teams driven by 2 different performance profiles. The first Brewers team started the first month+ with a 31-19 record and finished the last 35 games with a 26-9 record. The second Brewers team was a 0.500 ballclub for 3 months. The early outstanding record and the end were driven by an excellent run by the bullpen and the 26-9 run was a combination of lights out bullpen and a much better offense. The 0.500 team was mostly a function of an extended offensive drought mostly driven by 3-4 black holes at the bottom of the lineup. When the offense got better from the addition of Mouse and improved performance from Pina, Braun and Yelich, the bullpen was struggling. Once the bullpen stabilized and Yelich became a God then the team went on an absolute tear. What's different this year is those black holes are gone from day 1 and Yelich seems to have retained his super powers. Those factors make it less of a crisis to panic about the current makeup of the bullplen. In addition, the SP will likely outperform last years group making the reliance on the bullpen less. If Albers continues to be good Albers (and there's some data to support his struggles were injury related last year), a bullpen with Albers, Jeffress and Hader handling 6+ thru 9 on many days with Claudio in LH heavy situations, I don't have a problem relying on Junior, Chase, Jacob, and Taylor to fill roles for the team. Will they have bad stretches? of course, but we have a better rotation and a much better offense. Relax. We're the first dominant performance from Jeffress away from having a very good team and we're 4-1! Yeah!


Great take.
Agree with everything you said.

Only quibble would be when JJ comes back Barnes leaves and Wilson stays. And personally I’d want to see what fields can do over Williams.


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#74

Posted: April 04, 2019, 1:33 PM Post
Posts: 3100
coolhandluke121 said:
HiAndTight said:

But again, even if he is...you have to believe he's going to perform like he did last year, that shoulder won't become an issue again, and then you're still dealing with the giant hole Knebel is leaving.


Burnes and Woodruff are leaving a pretty big hole too. Bullpen fortunes are whimsical and they could revamp the pen quickly, but the Brewers are on the wrong end of things in a big way right now IMO. Honestly though I think they just have to weather the storm until closer to the trade deadline, cliche as that may sound. They should be able to score a lot of runs.



Cliche's are cliche's for a reason. That's pretty much the best I think most informed Brewers fans are hoping for the first couple months. I'd have been happy with a .500 April. I'd have been happier with Ottavino than Moose, but I'll stop kicking that horse.

Woody and Burnese are leaving holes as well, that's certainly true. Which is why it'd be great if the could sign Kimbrel and then at the trade deadline at another arm or two. You can find plenty of depth without giving up too much at the deadline. Soria types. It's far tougher to find dominant relievers like many believe Will Smith will be this year or Kimbrell has been his entire career.

Sooner or later, the guy who's on record stating that his goal is to break the all-time saves record is going to have to decide how much he really wants to play and how much he's going to cost himself. Take whenever he signs, add at least 3 weeks I'd guess. So right now he's looking at missing a month. There is a team with an offer that was one game away from the WS last year and wants you to close games for them. The longer he misses, the more he's susceptible to putting up bad numbers given it's a short sample size to begin with and the further away he gets from the monster deal he thought he deserved. Come back, pitch a year, put up an ERA like he has just about every year of his career, don't melt down in the postseason and you can get a 5 year 85-90 million dollar deal...or you're more likely to. Keep waiting and that becomes less likely IMO.


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#75

Posted: April 04, 2019, 1:40 PM Post
Posts: 3100
OldHeidelberg said:
OnTheBlack said:
Joey Meyer Bombs said:

Plus whoever is pulled from the rotation once Nelson is inserted.



I'm trying to think who would be the best option. I don't like the idea of any of them being pulled from the rotation. Burnes certainly seems like he'd be the best reliever. He was effectively a RH'ed Hader late last year, but he does have 4 pitches and the upside to make him an ace(I'd argue all 3 young arms could be low end aces or #2, though they're still a long way away from that). It'll almost certainly be one of them, probably Woodruff as I don't think Davies is much more valuable in the pen.

Really excited to see how this team has jumped out to a 4-1 start though with the bad news that came right before the season started.


I don't think the decision will be based on who could be the best reliever, rather who is the worst starter. I would be surprised if that was Burnes or Woodruff, seems like Davies going into the season but watching one time though the rotation Peralta could be an option as well. I think it is few weeks out yet for Nelson anyway, by then someone could be injured or the decision could look like an easy one.



I could see it either way. Davies isn't exactly the type of guy who's going to help your BP out much in a short series or a must win series, though you don't feel too bad about throwing him out there to pitch 4 innings or however long until he gets in trouble and then when the game starts to develop and you NEED outs and you can't afford to lose games, you can pick and choose when to use a Burnes or Woodruff type.


My point is that the difference between them as starters may not be as big as the difference between them as relievers. In that case, I'd go with the guy who'd be a better BP fit. And then if they want to limit the innings, I think it becomes a bit more clear.


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#76

Posted: April 04, 2019, 1:48 PM Post
Posts: 3100
coolhandluke121 said:
Bombers said:
There is a lot in this thread but a few things jump out
Knebel is definitely leaving a hole but Woodruff and Burnes. Eh, maybe a little. Woodruff pitched 12 times before Sept 1 of last year, I guess to me that isn't much of a hole. He was barely in our bullpen. (Plus of those 12, 8 of them were for 2 or more innings, meaning he was just a long man.) Corbin Burnes pitched 2 times before the all-star break last year.


When people talk about how great the pen was last year, they are talking about after the stretch run. Saying Burnes and Woodruff weren't there before the stretch run does nothing to diminish how important they were in making the bullpen the strength of a championship contender last year. The bullpen was struggling before Knebel returned in top form and Woodruff/Burnes joined the pen. They were in danger of missing the playoffs completely before the bullpen took over in August/September. It's totally fair to say they lost Woodruff and Burnes from the bullpen, because the bullpen was the positive difference in a lot of wins last year and they contributed to many of them.



I agree. I assume when people are talking about wanting a dominant BP, their concern is about Sept and Oct. The playoff push and then the actual playoffs. And when we talk about how it was our great pen that got us where it did last year, we're talking about when we were at our best. And that absolutely included Burnes and Woodruff in the pen.

The conversation is past how to be competitive and is now how can we get closer to teams like the Astros, Sox, Yankees and Dodgers.


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#77

Posted: April 05, 2019, 6:38 AM Post
Posts: 753
With jeffress issues and not able to afford kimbrel, stearns in a tough spot. Giants under the illusion they can win so they not gonna sell right now.

How many teams at this early point in season would sell?

Miami? Baltimore? Toronto? Kansas City? White Sox? Detroit? Texas?


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#78

Posted: April 05, 2019, 7:27 AM Post
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Location: Milwaukee, WI
...why do we have to trade for anyone right now? Don't worry, I'll answer it. We don't. Stearns is in a great spot with his team playing good baseball, leading the division, and a big reason for that early on is his pitching.


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#79

Posted: April 05, 2019, 7:37 AM Post
Posts: 753
Brew4U said:
...why do we have to trade for anyone right now? Don't worry, I'll answer it. We don't. Stearns is in a great spot with his team playing good baseball, leading the division, and a big reason for that early on is his pitching.


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#80

Posted: April 05, 2019, 7:43 AM Post
Posts: 753
Brew4U said:
...why do we have to trade for anyone right now? Don't worry, I'll answer it. We don't. Stearns is in a great spot with his team playing good baseball, leading the division, and a big reason for that early on is his pitching.


Agree, we don’t HAVE TO trade for anyone right now, but it would be nice to have one more experienced high leverage arm in our pen. But I would also imagine the price to be sky high for said arm.


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