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Extending Moose

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Offline  Re: Extending Moose
#21

Posted: April 29, 2019, 2:04 AM Post
Posts: 1392
adambr2 said:
RoCoBrewfan said:
Isn't Thames option for next year like 7.5 million? Why not just exercise that? Thames takes a lot of walks, and even when not hitting, usually carries a decent OBP. I guess I just see Thames upside as slightly higher than Moose's, if all we're going to do is put Moose at 1B.


Exactly. Do people realize Thames actually had a higher OPS than Moose last year, even though it seems widely believed that Moose was good and Thames was garbage in 2018?

I am not saying Thames is anything special, but I can't for the life of me understand why people want to kick Thames to the curb and in the same argument want to give Moose a multi-year extension.



I feel like that's a lot more on Moose being overrated than anything to do with Thames.


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Offline  Re: Extending Moose
#22

Posted: April 29, 2019, 3:02 AM Post
Posts: 510
adambr2 said:
RoCoBrewfan said:
Isn't Thames option for next year like 7.5 million? Why not just exercise that? Thames takes a lot of walks, and even when not hitting, usually carries a decent OBP. I guess I just see Thames upside as slightly higher than Moose's, if all we're going to do is put Moose at 1B.


Exactly. Do people realize Thames actually had a higher OPS than Moose last year, even though it seems widely believed that Moose was good and Thames was garbage in 2018?

I am not saying Thames is anything special, but I can't for the life of me understand why people want to kick Thames to the curb and in the same argument want to give Moose a multi-year extension.


Thames' problem always has been the whiffs. That's what everybody sees and remembers. He never tries to just make contact. It's always the HR swing no matter what the count or situation. Ks come at an alarming rate. Last year he got on a strikeout binge (July/ 26 Ks/ 65 ABs/8 RBIs -- Aug/ 25 Ks/41 ABs/5 RBIs -- Sept/ 9 Ks/18 ABs/0 RBI) and never recovered. He didn't drive in a run from Aug 15th until the end of the season. Just like every other hitting stat, OPS is over used and not always indicative of the hitter. Moose is a better all around hitter who plays very good D at a tough position - 3B (awful at 2B).


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Offline  Re: Extending Moose
#23

Posted: April 29, 2019, 9:29 AM Post
Posts: 1392
wntrtxn21 said:

Thames' problem always has been the whiffs. That's what everybody sees and remembers. He never tries to just make contact. It's always the HR swing no matter what the count or situation. Ks come at an alarming rate. Last year he got on a strikeout binge (July/ 26 Ks/ 65 ABs/8 RBIs -- Aug/ 25 Ks/41 ABs/5 RBIs -- Sept/ 9 Ks/18 ABs/0 RBI) and never recovered. He didn't drive in a run from Aug 15th until the end of the season. Just like every other hitting stat, OPS is over used and not always indicative of the hitter. Moose is a better all around hitter who plays very good D at a tough position - 3B (awful at 2B).



I don't know if anything is more frustrating that watching Aguilar right now. He seems to be pressing way too much, trying to hit for power when he doesn't need to try. I completely believe Aguilar was the player he showed last year, but the Brewers can only wait so long. If Aguilar gets it figured out, Thames situation becomes pretty obvious to me. Good year, trade him for whatever, bad year, decline. If Aggie doesn't and Thames has these stretches like he had in 2017, I guess you have to bring him back. You can't go in with only one option...unless you sign a corner OF or you get a lot more out of Ray or Taylor than I believe you'll get.

No matter what, I don't see any need to extend Moose. I get he's liked and he is a very competent 3rd basemen when the Brewers went a while without one, but they've got one now who's a very similar player, but with a significantly higher OBP historically.


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Offline  Re: Extending Moose
#24

Posted: April 29, 2019, 10:27 AM Post
Posts: 510
OnTheBlack said:
wntrtxn21 said:

Thames' problem always has been the whiffs. That's what everybody sees and remembers. He never tries to just make contact. It's always the HR swing no matter what the count or situation. Ks come at an alarming rate. Last year he got on a strikeout binge (July/ 26 Ks/ 65 ABs/8 RBIs -- Aug/ 25 Ks/41 ABs/5 RBIs -- Sept/ 9 Ks/18 ABs/0 RBI) and never recovered. He didn't drive in a run from Aug 15th until the end of the season. Just like every other hitting stat, OPS is over used and not always indicative of the hitter. Moose is a better all around hitter who plays very good D at a tough position - 3B (awful at 2B).


I don't know if anything is more frustrating that watching Aguilar right now. He seems to be pressing way too much, trying to hit for power when he doesn't need to try. I completely believe Aguilar was the player he showed last year, but the Brewers can only wait so long. If Aguilar gets it figured out, Thames situation becomes pretty obvious to me. Good year, trade him for whatever, bad year, decline. If Aggie doesn't and Thames has these stretches like he had in 2017, I guess you have to bring him back. You can't go in with only one option...unless you sign a corner OF or you get a lot more out of Ray or Taylor than I believe you'll get.

No matter what, I don't see any need to extend Moose. I get he's liked and he is a very competent 3rd basemen when the Brewers went a while without one, but they've got one now who's a very similar player, but with a significantly higher OBP historically.


The Aguilar situation is a lot like the Thames situation last year. Hopelessly lost at the plate and CC is unable to send him down to work on his swing and timing. I think Stearns' backup plan at 1B next year is Shaw if both Thames and Aguilar don't work out. He'll re-sign Moose and put Shaw at 1B possibly using Braun as the RH against lefties.


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Offline  Re: Extending Moose
#25

Posted: April 29, 2019, 11:50 AM Post
Posts: 1392
wntrtxn21 said:

The Aguilar situation is a lot like the Thames situation last year. Hopelessly lost at the plate and CC is unable to send him down to work on his swing and timing. I think Stearns' backup plan at 1B next year is Shaw if both Thames and Aguilar don't work out. He'll re-sign Moose and put Shaw at 1B possibly using Braun as the RH against lefties.



He's lost at the plate, but I don't think it's anything like Thames from last year. His strikeouts are DOWN. It's rare that a guy like him is making more contact and struggling this badly.

Without looking, I would just assume his exit velocity is way down, he's popping a lot more balls up or rolling over a lot more balls. His BABIP is .167, so he's probably better than his stats suggest, but I wouldn't expect him to have a high BABIP with how he's been hitting the ball.

And this is the most confounding thing to me. He's got such a simple, smooth stroke, he can shorten up and still hit for power...he just doesn't seem like a guy who when he's staying within himself and not trying to hit everything out, would go through these sustained slumps.



I'm gonna predict from May-End of the year he hits .280 with a OPS in the upper .800's. I just think he's too talented as a hitter to be this bad. I know I'm in the vast minority here. I just hope he's given time though...


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Offline  Re: Extending Moose
#26

Posted: April 29, 2019, 1:44 PM Post
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The problem is, this isn't a recent thing. I think from all the all star hype he received, it seems to have messed him up in a major way. He has been absolute garbage since the all star game.


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Offline  Re: Extending Moose
#27

Posted: April 29, 2019, 7:29 PM Post
Posts: 2040
rickh150 said:
I wouldn't give up on Aguilar. He is lost now, but he will get chances.


Umm...... yeah, he now has more HRs than last April.


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Offline  Re: Extending Moose
#28

Posted: April 29, 2019, 7:35 PM Post
Posts: 3060
rickh150 said:
rickh150 said:
I wouldn't give up on Aguilar. He is lost now, but he will get chances.


Umm...... yeah, he now has more HRs than last April.


Good call !!


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Offline  Re: Extending Moose
#29

Posted: April 29, 2019, 7:37 PM Post
Posts: 731
I like Moustakas just fine. He's not a player who really warrants a multi year deal according to the market though. Moving him to first doesn't make sense because you can get a guy who hits as well for him at first base for about $2mm on the FA market the past few years.

It might make some sense to exercise the mutual option next year depending on how things go and how Hiura does this year, but beyond that I wouldn't expect any time of extension


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Offline  Re: Extending Moose
#30

Posted: April 29, 2019, 8:41 PM Post
Posts: 4649
RoCoBrewfan said:
Isn't Thames option for next year like 7.5 million? Why not just exercise that? Thames takes a lot of walks, and even when not hitting, usually carries a decent OBP. I guess I just see Thames upside as slightly higher than Moose's, if all we're going to do is put Moose at 1B.


Moose offers a bit more positional versatility - handling 2b pretty well this year, plays third base, and has some experience at first.

Thames is really a 1B/DH who can play a corner OF spot in theory...

Honestly, I'd exercise Moose's option, and have him learn to play LF/RF in spring training 2020.


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Offline  Re: Extending Moose
#31

Posted: April 30, 2019, 2:19 AM Post
Posts: 4191
clancyphile said:
RoCoBrewfan said:
Isn't Thames option for next year like 7.5 million? Why not just exercise that? Thames takes a lot of walks, and even when not hitting, usually carries a decent OBP. I guess I just see Thames upside as slightly higher than Moose's, if all we're going to do is put Moose at 1B.


Moose offers a bit more positional versatility - handling 2b pretty well this year, plays third base, and has some experience at first.

Thames is really a 1B/DH who can play a corner OF spot in theory...

Honestly, I'd exercise Moose's option, and have him learn to play LF/RF in spring training 2020.



That just does not make sense. He's not a good enough hitter to warrant a corner OF spot before you take into account that he'd likely be awful defensively out there. And while I know you have....lets just say unique opinions on where we should play people, preventing runs is pretty important. I see no reason to put a .300 OBP bat out in LF or RF. I'd feel more confident pocketing 10-12 million and going with Corey Ray or Tyrone Taylor as Braun's backup or as the starter and then if necessary finding someone in the season to play there. That's not difficult. Corner OF's are probably just about the easiest part of your team to acquire.


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Offline  Re: Extending Moose
#32

Posted: April 30, 2019, 2:21 AM Post
Posts: 4191
OnTheBlack said:
wntrtxn21 said:

The Aguilar situation is a lot like the Thames situation last year. Hopelessly lost at the plate and CC is unable to send him down to work on his swing and timing. I think Stearns' backup plan at 1B next year is Shaw if both Thames and Aguilar don't work out. He'll re-sign Moose and put Shaw at 1B possibly using Braun as the RH against lefties.



He's lost at the plate, but I don't think it's anything like Thames from last year. His strikeouts are DOWN. It's rare that a guy like him is making more contact and struggling this badly.

Without looking, I would just assume his exit velocity is way down, he's popping a lot more balls up or rolling over a lot more balls. His BABIP is .167, so he's probably better than his stats suggest, but I wouldn't expect him to have a high BABIP with how he's been hitting the ball.

And this is the most confounding thing to me. He's got such a simple, smooth stroke, he can shorten up and still hit for power...he just doesn't seem like a guy who when he's staying within himself and not trying to hit everything out, would go through these sustained slumps.



I'm gonna predict from May-End of the year he hits .280 with a OPS in the upper .800's. I just think he's too talented as a hitter to be this bad. I know I'm in the vast minority here. I just hope he's given time though...


Should have said from here on. Lost out on a 3 hit game! Hopefully the start of something though.


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Offline  Re: Extending Moose
#33

Posted: April 30, 2019, 4:54 AM Post
Posts: 510
HiAndTight said:
clancyphile said:
RoCoBrewfan said:
Isn't Thames option for next year like 7.5 million? Why not just exercise that? Thames takes a lot of walks, and even when not hitting, usually carries a decent OBP. I guess I just see Thames upside as slightly higher than Moose's, if all we're going to do is put Moose at 1B.


Moose offers a bit more positional versatility - handling 2b pretty well this year, plays third base, and has some experience at first.

Thames is really a 1B/DH who can play a corner OF spot in theory...

Honestly, I'd exercise Moose's option, and have him learn to play LF/RF in spring training 2020.



That just does not make sense. He's not a good enough hitter to warrant a corner OF spot before you take into account that he'd likely be awful defensively out there. And while I know you have....lets just say unique opinions on where we should play people, preventing runs is pretty important. I see no reason to put a .300 OBP bat out in LF or RF. I'd feel more confident pocketing 10-12 million and going with Corey Ray or Tyrone Taylor as Braun's backup or as the starter and then if necessary finding someone in the season to play there. That's not difficult. Corner OF's are probably just about the easiest part of your team to acquire.


Taylor is looking good at AAA right now; .309/.371 with an .889 OPS. They are trying to get him to take more walks, but he will deserve a real look soon. Ray is playing his way out of the picture and probably going to be sent back to AA once he gets off the IL. Hitting .170/.250 with 24 Ks in only 52 ABs he is over matched and struggling again. Currently Gamel is doing a pretty good job for CC as Braun's replacement. .265/.379 is not bad for a backup OF. His whiffs are a concern, but he has done well in clutch situations and plays a much better defense than Braun.


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Offline  Re: Extending Moose
#34

Posted: April 30, 2019, 6:52 AM Post
Posts: 1956
Moose plays a solid 3B and is even playing 2B now, so a replacement argument is valid in valuing him over Thames. He's also not so all-or-nothing. But yeah, if anyone is talking about cutting Thames and moving Moose to 1B, that can be summarily dismissed for the time being.


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Offline  Re: Extending Moose
#35

Posted: April 30, 2019, 9:08 AM Post
Posts: 4642
I'd actually consider Moose on a reasonably team friendly extension (~2 years, $25M) if it meant trading Shaw to make way for Hiura in 2020. I'm trying not to view Shaw's poor start to 2019 as the primary reason for this - tough to ignore it though. Shaw is a streakier offensive player than Moose, but having to ride though those lows in the middle of the order is frustrating. Plus, I feel like Moose is a much better defensive 3B than Shaw is. Now that Shaw is getting more expensive through arbitration, if Moose is open to an extension it may be a good option if they can find a time to sell high on Shaw before opening day 2020.

Of course, you could always move Shaw over to 1B, extend Moose to play 3rd, call up Hiura, and roll with a Shaw/Aguilar 1B platoon next year, too...


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Offline  Re: Extending Moose
#36

Posted: May 01, 2019, 1:17 AM Post
Posts: 1392
Fear The Chorizo said:
I'd actually consider Moose on a reasonably team friendly extension (~2 years, $25M) if it meant trading Shaw to make way for Hiura in 2020. I'm trying not to view Shaw's poor start to 2019 as the primary reason for this - tough to ignore it though. Shaw is a streakier offensive player than Moose, but having to ride though those lows in the middle of the order is frustrating. Plus, I feel like Moose is a much better defensive 3B than Shaw is. Now that Shaw is getting more expensive through arbitration, if Moose is open to an extension it may be a good option if they can find a time to sell high on Shaw before opening day 2020.

Of course, you could always move Shaw over to 1B, extend Moose to play 3rd, call up Hiura, and roll with a Shaw/Aguilar 1B platoon next year, too...



The past two years Shaw's line;
.258.347/497.844 OPS

Moose-
255/.322/.474 .796 OPS, and that's with his hot start to the year with an OBP about 60 points above normal.

Shaw has posted WAR's of 4.1 and 3.9 the last two years, is 2 years younger and cheaper. Moose had one season with a 4 WAR when he was 25, 7 years ago now.

If we're trying to compete, I don't think signing Moose for 25 million over 2 years is a better option than riding with Shaw who's only entering arbitration next season. I mean...unless we're getting someone back who can help out immediately, what is the point? If feels like a net loss.


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Offline  Re: Extending Moose
#37

Posted: June 09, 2019, 9:00 PM Post
Posts: 2040
An extension still sounds good to me, especially with Shaw and Aguilar struggling... Then again, if we had a choice of Moose or Grandal, I'd take Grandal with Hiura hopefully picking up Moose's slack if he leaves.


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Offline  Re: Extending Moose
#38

Posted: June 09, 2019, 9:43 PM Post
Posts: 587
Extend Moose, then move Shaw to 1B (played there pretty well at times late last year). We'd still need to figure out what we are going to do long term at the catcher position beyond this year - at least until either Henry/Feliciano are ready.


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Offline  Re: Extending Moose
#39

Posted: June 09, 2019, 9:55 PM Post
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Posts: 9889
I think we going keep both MOOSE and Grandal


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Offline  Re: Extending Moose
#40

Posted: June 10, 2019, 10:03 AM Post
Posts: 4814
Location: Madison, WI
Resigning Moose does kind of seem like the logical fix to the 1B issue after this year. We can point to years of data and all that is not that friendly to Moose, I've been one to do it in regards to OBP, but watching games this year you can see a clear improvement in his approach to hit the ball opposite field better and with more sting to it. IDK if it's bearing out in any spray charts or anything, but compared to last year's seeming dead pull or pop ups his approach seems drastically better so his uptick in performance could be sustainable (not the 50 HR pace of course though).


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