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Is it time to consider moving Hader

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Offline  Is it time to consider moving Hader
#1

Posted: July 04, 2019, 4:02 PM Post
Posts: 83
This team doesn't look like a true contender and with Moustakas and Grandal likely gone after the season we have many holes to fill. With a less than stacked farm system and only Hiura looking to be an impact offensive force it may be time to consider cashing in one of our two biggest assets and move Hader if we can get a huge package in return.

To be honest I would even consider moving Yelich but what do you guys think of the possibility of moving Hader. We should only do this if we can get a great return but I think its something we should consider. Teams like Houston, Tampa, and Atlanta have the need and the farm systems to make such a deal.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#2

Posted: July 04, 2019, 4:20 PM Post
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No, no, no. Even the Dodgers list 6 straight last year. We’re in 1st place, and I’ve been waiting pretty much my whole life for this.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#3

Posted: July 04, 2019, 4:34 PM Post
Posts: 552
Location: Washburn, WI
I think it’s a little early to look at moving him. We still have him for 4.5 years of control. I think if you were to move him now or move him after the 2020 season when he still has 3 years of control left, you would get a very similar package as long as he continues to produce. He is almost so valuable that it’s hard to even get fair value for a player like Hader with the value he provides for the price you need to pay him.

I would be open to moving him now if some team blows you away with 4 top 100 guys with 2 of them in the top 25 or something, but how many teams would be willing to move that many prospects or even have the trade capital to pull it off? The Rays, Braves, Astros, and Dodgers are the teams that I could think of with strong enough farm systems to get a trade done while also being in a lengthy contention window where a trade from their perspective would make sense.

This is a great topic to consider since moving a guy like Hader could completely change the future outlook of an organization with how much young talent that can be brought into the system in a single trade. The Brewers’ farm system could go from bottom third to top 8 in a single trade. I just think it may be a little premature to move Hader.


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Online  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#4

Posted: July 04, 2019, 4:37 PM Post
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He is 25 years old and under team control for 4.5 more seasons. The odds are very small they would trade him unless they’re convinced they will receive a no doubt difference maker in return.

That being said, I wouldn’t freak out if they traded him as long as they got really good value in return.

Here are some very long shot (like to the moon) possibilities that would be tempting...

...to Twins for OF Alex Kirilloff, RHP Brusdar Graterol, and 1-2 more player.

...to Astros for OF Kyle Tucker and RHP Corbin Martin.

...to Braves for OF Drew Waters and RHP Ian Anderson.


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Online  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#5

Posted: July 04, 2019, 4:42 PM Post
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BrewersSuperCollector said:
No, no, no. Even the Dodgers list 6 straight last year. We’re in 1st place, and I’ve been waiting pretty much my whole life for this.

In 2017 the Dodgers lost 11 straight in September and ended up in the World Series. Still, I certainly wouldn’t bet on this Brewers team to make the World Series.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#6

Posted: July 04, 2019, 5:23 PM Post
Posts: 913
RollieTime said:
I think it’s a little early to look at moving him. We still have him for 4.5 years of control. I think if you were to move him now or move him after the 2020 season when he still has 3 years of control left, you would get a very similar package as long as he continues to produce. He is almost so valuable that it’s hard to even get fair value for a player like Hader with the value he provides for the price you need to pay him.


This is spot on. Noone would pay what he's actually worth at this point, so it wouldn't even be a case of "selling high" despite the return being great.

But yeah, if someone actually offered the kind of monster package he's actually worth, however unlikely that may be, then I'd do the trade. And that package would have to be players who are ready to contribute straight away, or almost straight away. Consider what the Rays got for a couple of years of Archer, or the Diamondbacks for one year of Goldschmidt, and thus the deal would start with two Glasnows/Meadows/Kellys/Weavers. And then prospects on top of that. Exactly what calibre and how many is hard to predict, since reliever value is hard to quantify, but it'd be some significant players.

As a sidenote regarding valuing relievers; Normally a straight WAR type of comparison, while a decent baseline, will be a bit skewed for relievers; it's not really their regular season performance you pay for, and their value isn't linear either. They provide quite little raw production, but the value of that production is significantly higher for the Dodgers than it is for the Marlins. And this of course goes very much for Hader. But what's interesting is that he's been so good that even if you were to judge him by WAR like a starter or position player, he'd still be a very valuable trade piece. I can't come up with a good comparison right now, but 4½ years of a proven 2-3 WAR player will fetch quite a lot.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#7

Posted: July 04, 2019, 6:04 PM Post
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I could see the dodgers offering the brewers absolutely everything they had for him. They’re desperate to win the World Series after becoming the bills of the mlb. They seem to develop much better than us and could plug tons of holes in the coming years with high end talent.

Valar Morghulis


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#8

Posted: July 04, 2019, 6:12 PM Post
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This is how I look at it. At the present time we are the 4th or 5th best team in the NL and I think I am being generous putting us that high. The Dodgers, Braves, Cubs all have better talent than we do and you can definitely make an argument that the Phillies and Nationals do as well. I think it would be foolish to put all of our chips in now when we would still be big underdogs if we somehow squeeze into the playoffs.

The Dodgers and Braves are definitely set up to contend for years to come and the Padres are going to be loaded in due time. I think this organization needs to look itself in the mirror and come to the realization that we need to reload and the only way to acquire cost controlled elite talent to go up against the leagues best is to consider trading Hader and maybe even Yelich.

I love having Hader in a Brewers uniform as much as anyone and feel the same way about Yelich but what I love even more is the thought of building a sustained winner for years to come. We currently have the best relief pitcher in baseball and one of the top 5 players in the sport yet this looks like an average at best team.

Looking past this current season we will probably be losing Moustakas and Grandal unless we want to give them long term deals for 20 million per season or so and I don't see adequate replacements in our system. Hiura will be a big time offensive player but who else is coming besides possibly Grisham and we don't really know what to make of him yet.

Bottom line to me is we have to really consider making moves like this that would certainly be painful as trading a guy like Hader is not a fun exercise but when I look at this teams future compared to the likes of the Dodgers and Braves I just don't see how we can matchup against them without more elite talent and that means considering moving Hader and Yelich.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#9

Posted: July 04, 2019, 6:21 PM Post
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Worst proposal I’ve ever seen in my entire life. Two days ago we were in first place and now y’all post about trading yelich and Hader? Get off this forum.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#10

Posted: July 04, 2019, 6:28 PM Post
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I don't see the Brewers trading Hader as the Brewers won't get the return they need for him. With 4.5 years of return you are looking at an ask of 2 times what the Cubs gave up for a half of a season for Chapman.

Who is going to pay that?

The same with Yelich there would be a lot of interest but I don't see a single team that would give up a Sale+ like return for Yelich.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#11

Posted: July 04, 2019, 6:31 PM Post
Posts: 83
TexasCheesehead said:
Worst proposal I’ve ever seen in my entire life. Two days ago we were in first place and now y’all post about trading yelich and Hader? Get off this forum.


This team is barely above .500 and only in first place due to the division being really bad. Instead of insulting people how about giving a detailed answer why we shouldn't consider trading Hader.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#12

Posted: July 04, 2019, 6:34 PM Post
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brewers888 said:
TexasCheesehead said:
Worst proposal I’ve ever seen in my entire life. Two days ago we were in first place and now y’all post about trading yelich and Hader? Get off this forum.


This team is barely above .500 and only in first place due to the division being really bad. Instead of insulting people how about giving a detailed answer why we shouldn't consider trading Hader.



Because they are the under team control for a long time and are players you build around. We are already built to be competitive for 4 years and trading them is simply setting us back to square one for literally no reason whatsoever


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#13

Posted: July 04, 2019, 6:35 PM Post
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Quote me I guanretee we will be playing in October


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#14

Posted: July 04, 2019, 6:36 PM Post
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nate82 said:
I don't see the Brewers trading Hader as the Brewers won't get the return they need for him. With 4.5 years of return you are looking at an ask of 2 times what the Cubs gave up for a half of a season for Chapman.

Who is going to pay that?

The same with Yelich there would be a lot of interest but I don't see a single team that would give up a Sale+ like return for Yelich.


I could definitely see a team like Houston who has a great farm system and a deep major league roster being willing to offer a ton for Hader. As for Yelich maybe one of these teams with deep prospect lists would be willing to offer a ridiculous amount.

Never would I suggest trading either Hader or Yelich just for the sake of making a move. Maybe a team would be willing to make us an offer that we just couldn't turn down and we should be open to that possibility. The chances of us moving either of them anytime soon is remote and I was just throwing the idea out there for discussion.


Last edited by brewers888 on July 04, 2019, 7:12 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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Online  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#15

Posted: July 04, 2019, 7:06 PM Post
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TexasCheesehead said:
Because they are the under team control for a long time and are players you build around.


You don't build around players like Hader.

Cards' fans wear jorts.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#16

Posted: July 04, 2019, 7:34 PM Post
Posts: 3573
brewers888 said:
This is how I look at it. At the present time we are the 4th or 5th best team in the NL and I think I am being generous putting us that high. The Dodgers, Braves, Cubs all have better talent than we do and you can definitely make an argument that the Phillies and Nationals do as well. I think it would be foolish to put all of our chips in now when we would still be big underdogs if we somehow squeeze into the playoffs.

The Dodgers and Braves are definitely set up to contend for years to come and the Padres are going to be loaded in due time. I think this organization needs to look itself in the mirror and come to the realization that we need to reload and the only way to acquire cost controlled elite talent to go up against the leagues best is to consider trading Hader and maybe even Yelich.

I love having Hader in a Brewers uniform as much as anyone and feel the same way about Yelich but what I love even more is the thought of building a sustained winner for years to come. We currently have the best relief pitcher in baseball and one of the top 5 players in the sport yet this looks like an average at best team.

Looking past this current season we will probably be losing Moustakas and Grandal unless we want to give them long term deals for 20 million per season or so and I don't see adequate replacements in our system. Hiura will be a big time offensive player but who else is coming besides possibly Grisham and we don't really know what to make of him yet.

Bottom line to me is we have to really consider making moves like this that would certainly be painful as trading a guy like Hader is not a fun exercise but when I look at this teams future compared to the likes of the Dodgers and Braves I just don't see how we can matchup against them without more elite talent and that means considering moving Hader and Yelich.



I feel like you pretty much just repeated what you said in the first post here and ignored what everyone else has since replied.

Also, if you think the Cubs are better that's fine. They were more talented last year as well. But go over to their message boards right now. If the sky is falling here, the universe is collapsing on them over there.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#17

Posted: July 04, 2019, 7:53 PM Post
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brewers888 said:
nate82 said:
I don't see the Brewers trading Hader as the Brewers won't get the return they need for him. With 4.5 years of return you are looking at an ask of 2 times what the Cubs gave up for a half of a season for Chapman.

Who is going to pay that?

The same with Yelich there would be a lot of interest but I don't see a single team that would give up a Sale+ like return for Yelich.


I could definitely see a team like Houston who has a great farm system and a deep major league roster being willing to offer a ton for Hader. As for Yelich maybe one of these teams with deep prospect lists would be willing to offer a ridiculous amount.

Never would I suggest trading either Hader or Yelich just for the sake of making a move. Maybe a team would be willing to make us an offer that we just couldn't turn down and we should be open to that possibility. The chances of us moving either of them anytime soon is remote and I was just throwing the idea out there for discussion.


For the Brewers to trade Hader to the Astros it would cost the Astros Whitley and Tucker and I don't see the Astros even entertaining this even for just one of them.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#18

Posted: July 04, 2019, 8:02 PM Post
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I’d argue we have the best pitcher and best hitter in all of baseball right now, both controlled for 4 more years. Why would you mess with that?


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Online  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#19

Posted: July 04, 2019, 8:08 PM Post
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TexasCheesehead said:
I’d argue we have the best pitcher in all of baseball right now


There is no cogent argument that could be made for this.

Cards' fans wear jorts.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#20

Posted: July 04, 2019, 10:19 PM Post
Posts: 552
Location: Washburn, WI
TexasCheesehead said:
I’d argue we have the best pitcher and best hitter in all of baseball right now, both controlled for 4 more years. Why would you mess with that?


Let’s say you could get a package like this right now for Hader.

OF Yordan Alvarez
RHP Corbin Martin
RHP J.B. Bukauskas
1B Seth Beer

You get 6 years of a power hitting lefty to play in left field, having your outfield locked up for 4 years. Martin you could slot into the rotation right away and let him continue to develop at the MLB level. Hoping that he heads into 2020 as a mainstay in the rotation. Bukauskas has the makings of being a dominant relief pitcher and could slot into the bullpen mid-season 2020. Beer would give the Brewers a legit first base prospect, something that they do not have in the minors or at the MLB level for that matter.

Assuming that the Brewers retain one of Grandal or Moose after this season, you could head into 2020 with a 1-5 of:

CF Cain
RF Yelich
2B Hiura
LF Alvarez
3B Moose/C Grandal

Hiura and Alvarez would each have 6 years of control. Pairing those two with Yelich for multiple years would give the Brewers a very strong young nucleus to build around with your main 3 guys making under $17 million combined each of the next 3 seasons. Braun’s contract would be off the books the following season and allow Stearns to go out and get another big bat to add to the mix.

Having 4+ years of control of Woodruff, Burnes, Peralta, Martin, and Bukauskas to pair with Nelson if he returns and Davies, would give the Brewers a lot to be excited about on the pitching side as well.

The selling of Hader isn’t the start of a rebuild. It’s retooling the roster to add a cheap impact bat like Alvarez for 6 years while adding other high end talent to the system. I can tell you one thing though. 6 years of Hiura and Alvarez hitting in the middle of the lineup with Yelich is pretty dang exciting.


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