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Is it time to consider moving Hader

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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: July 10, 2019, 2:49 PM Post
Posts: 5019
Location: New Berlin, WI
RollieTime said:
KeithStone53151 said:
MrTPlush said:
Dodgers are probably the most logical team because they have to be getting desperate to win and Hader could honestly put them over the top. However that much control of Hader is arguably worth one of the premier prospects in the game...not sure the Dodgers possess that. The Astros have the prospects, no doubt, but they may not be that desperate to trade away their reinforcements. Braves are an interesting possibility.


This won't happen, but for pure speculation purposes...I think something like Verdugo + Lux + Smith could be interesting, also add in them taking Braun and his contract. No way the Dodgers would be willing to give that up, but I think it has to be something like that to give up Hader. All those guys are either MLB ready or in the upper minors and very close to MLB ready.


If we could get a package like that from the Dodgers, sign me up! Obviously losing Hader in the pen would be a huge blow. There is nothing wrong with taking a step back for one season, bringing in a ton of young talent, and being set up nicely heading into 2020.


A big part of why I don't think Hader moves is...I don't think the Dodgers pony up an offer like that. I suspect they'd probably prefer to go after someone like Thor with a package that spectacular, and probably also try to get Diaz. I actually think the Dodgers and Mets match up really well for a massive blockbuster trade for Thor + Diaz...especially with the noted pressure/closing window and the Padres longstanding interest in Thor.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: July 10, 2019, 2:50 PM Post
Posts: 93
Location: Mequon
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
Wahoo Maniac said:
Joey Meyer Bombs said:

Huh? You have an MVP signed to an affordable long-term deal, and you want to deal him in his athletic prime with two full seasons of control remaining? Who's crazy "likelihood" are you living in?

Yelich will command a price we can’t and won’t pay. He has 3yrs left. So he’s either traded after 2020 or 2021 because you don’t sell him with 2 months control nor do you keep him and let him walk.


Yelich is signed through the 2022 season. The last year of the deal is a $15 million team option. I could understand perhaps dealing him after the 2021 season, but it makes next to no sense to look at doing it after 2020.

Sure. But I’d say it depends how 2020 plays out and what 2021 could look like but we won’t know that for a bit. 2yrs left of Yelich will bring a larger haul than 1yr.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: July 10, 2019, 2:53 PM Post
Posts: 5019
Location: New Berlin, WI
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
Wahoo Maniac said:
Yelich will command a price we can’t and won’t pay. He has 3yrs left. So he’s either traded after 2020 or 2021 because you don’t sell him with 2 months control nor do you keep him and let him walk.


Yelich is signed through the 2022 season. The last year of the deal is a $15 million team option. I could understand perhaps dealing him after the 2021 season, but it makes next to no sense to look at doing it after 2020.


Dealing Yelich will probably in large part depend on contention. If we are bad next year, there's an outside chance we float him at the deadline and see what kind of offers we get. On the flip side, if we are in first in the division in 2021 and 2022 at the deadline...we might just ride it out and take the comp pick. It's a very interesting discussion for next year at the deadline.


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Online  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: July 10, 2019, 3:03 PM Post
Posts: 11478
Now we are imagining trading Yelich next year?

My oh my.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: July 10, 2019, 3:11 PM Post
Posts: 93
Location: Mequon
MrTPlush said:
Now we are imagining trading Yelich next year?

My oh my.

There’s a big difference in trading Hader at 4.5yrs and “potentially” trading Yelich at 2yrs depending what 2021 could look like. He’ll most likely get traded after 2021 Goldschmidt style.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: July 10, 2019, 3:35 PM Post
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Posts: 13213
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Trading Hader and Yelich? [laughing] We get two of the best players at their position and we are trading them off for prospects that have so little of a chance to be what those two are. Incredible.

"I'm not as good as I was but in big moments I'm still the guy. I want that opportunity." -Ryan Braun


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: July 10, 2019, 3:56 PM Post
Posts: 393
Brew crew 92 said:
How about 2 1/2 times the prospect haul. 2 years of Yelich is “control”, one year is a rental. Massive difference in prospect haul.

This is what we have to do. 200 million payroll, things obviously would be different. Trading Yelich, isn’t out of the box thinking, imo, it’s a no brainer.


With your scenario the Brewers would perpetually be trading their best players long before their contracts are up to keep building their farm system with prospects who may never materialize. Then maybe trading some of the aquired prospects for MLB ready talent that isn't near what they let go. With teams that can't afford near unlimited budgets, they have to go for it when they have the chance. They can't keep trading their best players because they might get a better deal earlier in their contracts.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: July 10, 2019, 4:09 PM Post
Posts: 3896
Brew crew 92 said:
How about 2 1/2 times the prospect haul. 2 years of Yelich is “control”, one year is a rental. Massive difference in prospect haul.

This is what we have to do. 200 million payroll, things obviously would be different. Trading Yelich, isn’t out of the box thinking, imo, it’s a no brainer.



But wait, I thought the Brewers payroll was going to be 190 million or so? Remember how easy it was? You cracked the puzzle. The Brewers simply raise their payroll to ~200 or so million when it comes time to win a couple World Series, and then they slash them to 50 when they don't want to win.


The most ironic thing of all of this, you believe that we're going to have FIVE aces on the team next year, yet you want to trade the second best offensive player over the last calendar year despite controlling him for cheap through 2022 ALL THE WHILE you're #1 goal is to win a WS while Uecker and Selig are alive?

Oh, and also Brandon Woodruff if now the most highly regarded young pitcher in all of baseball. Ahead of Walker Buehler and others.

I feel like 95 pct of what you say should be in blue.


Oh...sorry, I forgot, on top of having those 5 aces next year, we're also going to sign Gerrit Cole, trade for Bauer, re-sign Grandal and Moose. So....while doing all those things, you're right, nothing makes more sense than trading the extremely affordable, game-changing MVP we have cheap for the next two and a half years!!!!


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Online  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: July 10, 2019, 4:22 PM Post
Posts: 643
Location: Washburn, WI
KeithStone53151 said:
RollieTime said:
KeithStone53151 said:

This won't happen, but for pure speculation purposes...I think something like Verdugo + Lux + Smith could be interesting, also add in them taking Braun and his contract. No way the Dodgers would be willing to give that up, but I think it has to be something like that to give up Hader. All those guys are either MLB ready or in the upper minors and very close to MLB ready.


If we could get a package like that from the Dodgers, sign me up! Obviously losing Hader in the pen would be a huge blow. There is nothing wrong with taking a step back for one season, bringing in a ton of young talent, and being set up nicely heading into 2020.


A big part of why I don't think Hader moves is...I don't think the Dodgers pony up an offer like that. I suspect they'd probably prefer to go after someone like Thor with a package that spectacular, and probably also try to get Diaz. I actually think the Dodgers and Mets match up really well for a massive blockbuster trade for Thor + Diaz...especially with the noted pressure/closing window and the Padres longstanding interest in Thor.


The Dodgers could go that route, but I don’t think they need to strengthen their rotation any more than it is currently. You only need 3, possibly 4 guys to make it through the playoffs. They know and the Brewers know that the Dodgers will be in the playoffs and a shutdown reliever is something every team needs and something the Dodgers really don’t have. They have a bunch of solid guys, but nobody near as dominant as Hader. With Hader under control for 4.5 seasons, the Brewers have all the leverage. Either they can step up and give Stearns what he wants otherwise we move on. There are no other Hader’s out there for them to acquire. And absolutely no “need” to move him right now. Stearns literally has all the power in negotiations for Hader right now.

On a different note, Yelich won’t be going anywhere. He’s a guy you build your team around, not trade away. There’s a big difference between trading away one of the top hitters in the game and a shutdown relief pitcher in my opinion. It’s easier to replace bullpen arms at a reasonable rate on the free agent market and have them produce than to get a position player for cheap thinking that he will turn into an All-Star.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: July 10, 2019, 4:46 PM Post
Posts: 3896
KeithStone53151 said:
A big part of why I don't think Hader moves is...I don't think the Dodgers pony up an offer like that. I suspect they'd probably prefer to go after someone like Thor with a package that spectacular, and probably also try to get Diaz. I actually think the Dodgers and Mets match up really well for a massive blockbuster trade for Thor + Diaz...especially with the noted pressure/closing window and the Padres longstanding interest in Thor.



Ok, lets get a little crazy(since we're already talking about trading Yelich and Hader).

The Astros would like another front line starting pitcher, preferably one they control for the near future with Cole leaving next year presumably.

Woodruff+Hader for Forest Whitely, Yordan Alvarez, Corbin Martin, J.B. Bukauskas and Brandon Bielak.

I mean, if we're trading away our best young pitcher when he's under team control through 2024, might as well add our most valuable and get back a couple of injured, but really high ceiling guys in return, a monster OF'er and couple of future relief aces.

Then we turn around, sell Yelich....pick the team and then grab 4 or 5 of their top prospects! Then if a couple of them hit, turn around and trade THEM in a couple of years.


Seriously though, does Houston agree to that trade in your opinion? I don't think we do, but do you think they give up their top two pitching prospects, an all-world OF prospect(made more likely with Tucker waiting in the wings) and a couple of other young arms?

I just figured as long as the trades were getting a little over the top...lets tr this one on for size!


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Online  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: July 10, 2019, 4:58 PM Post
Posts: 2919
HiAndTight said:
Brew crew 92 said:
How about 2 1/2 times the prospect haul. 2 years of Yelich is “control”, one year is a rental. Massive difference in prospect haul.

This is what we have to do. 200 million payroll, things obviously would be different. Trading Yelich, isn’t out of the box thinking, imo, it’s a no brainer.



But wait, I thought the Brewers payroll was going to be 190 million or so? Remember how easy it was? You cracked the puzzle. The Brewers simply raise their payroll to ~200 or so million when it comes time to win a couple World Series, and then they slash them to 50 when they don't want to win.


The most ironic thing of all of this, you believe that we're going to have FIVE aces on the team next year, yet you want to trade the second best offensive player over the last calendar year despite controlling him for cheap through 2022 ALL THE WHILE you're #1 goal is to win a WS while Uecker and Selig are alive?

Oh, and also Brandon Woodruff if now the most highly regarded young pitcher in all of baseball. Ahead of Walker Buehler and others.

I feel like 95 pct of what you say should be in blue.


Oh...sorry, I forgot, on top of having those 5 aces next year, we're also going to sign Gerrit Cole, trade for Bauer, re-sign Grandal and Moose. So....while doing all those things, you're right, nothing makes more sense than trading the extremely affordable, game-changing MVP we have cheap for the next two and a half years!!!!


If you want to get into a payroll debate with me, I’m more than willing in the spending thread. So I won’t comment any further on that.

If you would actually read what I’ve said, you wouldn’t be saying the things your saying. So instead of continually throwing the ace’s comment at me in multiple threads, why not just stick to the subject matter at hand, l believe you to be bright enough to debate without the comments of months ago posts that I’ve already publicly said I regret saying.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: July 11, 2019, 12:33 AM Post
Posts: 1390
Brew crew 92 said:

If you want to get into a payroll debate with me, I’m more than willing in the spending thread. So I won’t comment any further on that.

If you would actually read what I’ve said, you wouldn’t be saying the things your saying. So instead of continually throwing the ace’s comment at me in multiple threads, why not just stick to the subject matter at hand, l believe you to be bright enough to debate without the comments of months ago posts that I’ve already publicly said I regret saying.



Oh god no. Please no more. I'm in favor of starting a go fund me page so I can stop hearing about what you believe the Brewers payroll should be!


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: July 11, 2019, 12:46 AM Post
Posts: 1390
RollieTime said:
The Dodgers could go that route, but I don’t think they need to strengthen their rotation any more than it is currently. You only need 3, possibly 4 guys to make it through the playoffs. They know and the Brewers know that the Dodgers will be in the playoffs and a shutdown reliever is something every team needs and something the Dodgers really don’t have. They have a bunch of solid guys, but nobody near as dominant as Hader. With Hader under control for 4.5 seasons, the Brewers have all the leverage. Either they can step up and give Stearns what he wants otherwise we move on. There are no other Hader’s out there for them to acquire. And absolutely no “need” to move him right now. Stearns literally has all the power in negotiations for Hader right now.

On a different note, Yelich won’t be going anywhere. He’s a guy you build your team around, not trade away. There’s a big difference between trading away one of the top hitters in the game and a shutdown relief pitcher in my opinion. It’s easier to replace bullpen arms at a reasonable rate on the free agent market and have them produce than to get a position player for cheap thinking that he will turn into an All-Star.


Can you make them take Claudio as well?


Seriously though, I think we're looking at having a loaded BP next year even if you take Hader out of the equation. If Hader can bring you back an elite haul, you have to consider it.

I honestly like the idea of trading away a few assets, rebuilding or maybe more accurately re-loading quickly and then going for it. The other option, trading for players would require guys like Turang and that just doesn't seem worth it. Ray, Grisham...those players I'd be alright with, especially assuming Ray bounces back and ends up with a decent line and his value is restored.

If we're going to part with someone like Hader though, I'd hope we'd get two elite prospects. I actually like the Forrest Whitely+Alvarez type deal...but that seems pretty far fetched. But I suppose that's your point. If someone offers that type of deal, take it. If not, his value probably won't change substantially over the next year and a half.


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Online  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: July 11, 2019, 6:24 AM Post
Posts: 2919
OnTheBlack said:
RollieTime said:
The Dodgers could go that route, but I don’t think they need to strengthen their rotation any more than it is currently. You only need 3, possibly 4 guys to make it through the playoffs. They know and the Brewers know that the Dodgers will be in the playoffs and a shutdown reliever is something every team needs and something the Dodgers really don’t have. They have a bunch of solid guys, but nobody near as dominant as Hader. With Hader under control for 4.5 seasons, the Brewers have all the leverage. Either they can step up and give Stearns what he wants otherwise we move on. There are no other Hader’s out there for them to acquire. And absolutely no “need” to move him right now. Stearns literally has all the power in negotiations for Hader right now.

On a different note, Yelich won’t be going anywhere. He’s a guy you build your team around, not trade away. There’s a big difference between trading away one of the top hitters in the game and a shutdown relief pitcher in my opinion. It’s easier to replace bullpen arms at a reasonable rate on the free agent market and have them produce than to get a position player for cheap thinking that he will turn into an All-Star.


Can you make them take Claudio as well?


Seriously though, I think we're looking at having a loaded BP next year even if you take Hader out of the equation. If Hader can bring you back an elite haul, you have to consider it.

I honestly like the idea of trading away a few assets, rebuilding or maybe more accurately re-loading quickly and then going for it. The other option, trading for players would require guys like Turang and that just doesn't seem worth it. Ray, Grisham...those players I'd be alright with, especially assuming Ray bounces back and ends up with a decent line and his value is restored.

If we're going to part with someone like Hader though, I'd hope we'd get two elite prospects. I actually like the Forrest Whitely+Alvarez type deal...but that seems pretty far fetched. But I suppose that's your point. If someone offers that type of deal, take it. If not, his value probably won't change substantially over the next year and a half.


Why would/should we trade a few assets(outside of hader to improve this year and next)and weaken ourselves this year, when this division is up for grabs? Assuming you mean trade Moose Grandal. What we get for those two rentals won’t even amount to a hill of beans. Imo, with that being the case, at a minimum, add rentals to help us win this year, without giving up significant prospects.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: July 11, 2019, 6:42 AM Post
Posts: 393
OnTheBlack said:
RollieTime said:
The Dodgers could go that route, but I don’t think they need to strengthen their rotation any more than it is currently. You only need 3, possibly 4 guys to make it through the playoffs. They know and the Brewers know that the Dodgers will be in the playoffs and a shutdown reliever is something every team needs and something the Dodgers really don’t have. They have a bunch of solid guys, but nobody near as dominant as Hader. With Hader under control for 4.5 seasons, the Brewers have all the leverage. Either they can step up and give Stearns what he wants otherwise we move on. There are no other Hader’s out there for them to acquire. And absolutely no “need” to move him right now. Stearns literally has all the power in negotiations for Hader right now.

On a different note, Yelich won’t be going anywhere. He’s a guy you build your team around, not trade away. There’s a big difference between trading away one of the top hitters in the game and a shutdown relief pitcher in my opinion. It’s easier to replace bullpen arms at a reasonable rate on the free agent market and have them produce than to get a position player for cheap thinking that he will turn into an All-Star.


Can you make them take Claudio as well?


Seriously though, I think we're looking at having a loaded BP next year even if you take Hader out of the equation. If Hader can bring you back an elite haul, you have to consider it.

I honestly like the idea of trading away a few assets, rebuilding or maybe more accurately re-loading quickly and then going for it. The other option, trading for players would require guys like Turang and that just doesn't seem worth it. Ray, Grisham...those players I'd be alright with, especially assuming Ray bounces back and ends up with a decent line and his value is restored.

If we're going to part with someone like Hader though, I'd hope we'd get two elite prospects. I actually like the Forrest Whitely+Alvarez type deal...but that seems pretty far fetched. But I suppose that's your point. If someone offers that type of deal, take it. If not, his value probably won't change substantially over the next year and a half.


What is your "loaded pen" w/o Hader? Wahl has pitched exactly 13 innings in the majors and is coming off ACL surgery. Knebel is coming back from TJ surgery and nobody knows how he'll respond (Nelson after nearly two years still ??). Jeffress is not anywhere close to what he was last year and looks to regress further. Albers probably will be gone. Guerra has been awful, Burnes may start or may be iffy in the pen again. Claudio is questionable at best, Peralta has been up and down and far from reliable. The rest of the slugs CC has run out there aren't even worth mentioning. Unless you know who Stearns is going to get, the pen looks to be anything but loaded next year w/o it's biggest weapon, Hader.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: July 11, 2019, 8:15 AM Post
Posts: 93
Location: Mequon
wntrtxn21 said:
What is your "loaded pen" w/o Hader? Wahl has pitched exactly 13 innings in the majors and is coming off ACL surgery. Knebel is coming back from TJ surgery and nobody knows how he'll respond (Nelson after nearly two years still ??). Jeffress is not anywhere close to what he was last year and looks to regress further. Albers probably will be gone. Guerra has been awful, Burnes may start or may be iffy in the pen again. Claudio is questionable at best, Peralta has been up and down and far from reliable. The rest of the slugs CC has run out there aren't even worth mentioning. Unless you know who Stearns is going to get, the pen looks to be anything but loaded next year w/o it's biggest weapon, Hader.

Well when you assume everyone is going to pitch next year exactly to their current stat lines it's easy to determine the pen won't be loaded. Except Jeffress had a 2.52 ERA until mid-June then had a stretch the final half of last month that saw his ERA rise 1.5 runs. Same goes for Guerra as he had a 3.08 ERA until the final 2wks of the first half. He's been far from awful. Claudio stands out as being the most inconsistent vet pen arm and his walk rate has doubled from previous years but since the start of June he's looked much better and settled in dropping his ERA 2 full runs (could also be how they're using him too). Houser has dominated in the pen and needs to be back there once the rotation is stabilized with an acquisition. Even if Burnes stays in the pen next year he's settled in with a 2.91 ERA since the beginning of June and was great there last year (I think he still ends up in the rotation as his stuff is too good). Peralta only seems comfortable when starting or entering the game early (prior to the 5th or later).

It's clear removing Hader from the pen makes it worse because he's elite. In order to load the pen next year if he's gone we'd have to replace him with a boderline AS arm, have Knebel be solid and replace both Claudio and Peralta with very good/consistent pen arms. That could happen but most likely won't so I agree with you there. Losing Hader right now would be a big blow and there's no way around that but I think your take on the rest of the pen is misleading.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: July 11, 2019, 9:43 AM Post
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I agree that the pen w/o Hader looks extremely mediocre right now. Now try to imagine the offense w/o Moose, Grandal and Cain and Braun being 1 yr older...


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: July 11, 2019, 9:56 AM Post
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Posts: 13213
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Braun is like a fine wine...

"I'm not as good as I was but in big moments I'm still the guy. I want that opportunity." -Ryan Braun


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: July 11, 2019, 4:56 PM Post
Posts: 18514
Brew4U said:
Braun is like a fine wine...


I see him as more of your favorite beer after it's gone skunky. It's been around awhile and won't be nearly as good anymore, but the liquor store is closed and you don't really have other options, so it'll get the job done.


Last edited by adambr2 on July 11, 2019, 6:11 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: July 11, 2019, 6:06 PM Post
Posts: 80
Very good adambr2. Made me chuckle. We need a +1 on this forum. Just reading all the posts on this subject can make guys head swim.
It seems to me that a few years back we were supposed to be an a big rebuild, but there were some really good moves made and our rebuild was cut short and we didn't really restock our system with high end picks( not complaining ) now we have some holes in this year's lineup with not alot in the cupboard that will net a player or two to put us over the top. I keep thinking that trading Hader is a good idea to help restock our system in one big way. Then I think of Brinson. Help. I can't decide.


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