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Is it time to consider moving Hader

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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: October 05, 2019, 7:29 AM Post
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Minor is probably the right word to emphasize, as he was more disappointed that the Brewers and he didn't discuss a longer-term contract than anything, it seemed. As you said, it'll be interesting to see how that's handled this year when he's still got one very cheap year left.


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Online  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: October 05, 2019, 7:46 AM Post
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3and2Fastball said:
Hader is crucial to winning?


Yes, the reliever with the second highest Win Probability Added in MLB over the last three seasons is crucial to winning.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: October 05, 2019, 7:53 AM Post
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I am somewhat bewildered that people are apparently willing to move on from a cheap, team-controlled reliever that was one of the only useful arms out of a bullpen that was maligned almost all year otherwise. It makes no sense at all.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: October 05, 2019, 8:34 AM Post
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Brewers fans don't like nice things. Every time we get a great player, someone wants to trade him for prospects.

Hell, people here even want to trade Yelich. Hey he's good, let's trade him for prospects rather than have a superstar player to build around.

"I'm sick of runnin' from these wimps!" Ajax - The WARRIORS


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Online  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: October 05, 2019, 8:44 AM Post
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turborickey said:
Brewers fans don't like nice things. Every time we get a great player, someone wants to trade him for prospects.

Hell, people here even want to trade Yelich. Hey he's good, let's trade him for prospects rather than have a superstar player to build around.


But what if, and hear me out here, they traded Yelich for another great player?

"I'm not as good as I was but in big moments I'm still the guy. I want that opportunity." -Ryan Braun


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: October 05, 2019, 10:04 AM Post
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Would I move Hader? Well, in some rare circumstances.

But it would involve the Dodgers offering Bellinger, the Mets offering Alonzo, the Angels offering Trout, the Astros offering us the cream of their farm system (a half-dozen of their top 10 prospects) or some similar circumstance that means the GM calling Stearns would rightfully be asked to pee in a cup.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: October 06, 2019, 9:20 AM Post
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PeaveyFury said:
I am somewhat bewildered that people are apparently willing to move on from a cheap, team-controlled reliever that was one of the only useful arms out of a bullpen that was maligned almost all year otherwise. It makes no sense at all.


I'm of the opinion that:
A. Relievers are more volatile than other players
B. Elite relievers have more value to excellent teams than good teams, to good teams than mediocre teams, and to mediocre teams than to bad teams
C. The Brewers w/o Grandal and Moustakas are a mediocre team (with a poor farm system).

If we can get a C, 3B, SS, and right-handed 1B man/slugger then it makes sense to hold on to Hader. If not, it certainly makes sense to trade Hader--especially if we can fill some of those holes I listed with good, young, cheap players.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: October 06, 2019, 9:28 AM Post
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PeaveyFury said:
I am somewhat bewildered that people are apparently willing to move on from a cheap, team-controlled reliever that was one of the only useful arms out of a bullpen that was maligned almost all year otherwise. It makes no sense at all.


I assume people want to trade him, not cut him. Here could be the key to fixing the SS hole.

Relievers have a short shelf life, especially those who rely on deception. Trading Hader now might prove to be genius.

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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: October 06, 2019, 11:04 AM Post
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Then who is pitching out of our bullpen? By my count, the only reliable-ish guy under contract next year other than Hader is Suter, and we're hoping that his September performance carries over. The team had a massive bullpen problem this year, and trading one of the best pieces from that even if it fills a different hole is just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: October 06, 2019, 12:31 PM Post
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PeaveyFury said:
Then who is pitching out of our bullpen? By my count, the only reliable-ish guy under contract next year other than Hader is Suter, and we're hoping that his September performance carries over. The team had a massive bullpen problem this year, and trading one of the best pieces from that even if it fills a different hole is just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.


I think the idea to trade Hader also would involve some trades for relievers and definitely a couple FA signings. I don't see anyone offering us his pricetag, but if some one does good relievers seem to be going for a much lower rate on the FA market these days. At least, logic would say those wanting to trade Hader expect other moves.

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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: October 06, 2019, 5:18 PM Post
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PeaveyFury said:
Then who is pitching out of our bullpen? By my count, the only reliable-ish guy under contract next year other than Hader is Suter, and we're hoping that his September performance carries over. The team had a massive bullpen problem this year, and trading one of the best pieces from that even if it fills a different hole is just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.


Knebel and Pomeranz.

Much easier to find a reliever than a stud SS. If Hader fades, it will be those 2 even if Hader is here.

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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: October 06, 2019, 5:22 PM Post
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Never Outhustled said:
Knebel and Pomeranz.

Much easier to find a reliever than a stud SS. If Hader fades, it will be those 2 even if Hader is here.


Pomeranz is a free agent and Knebel is coming off a major arm injury. Seems like a bad/dangerous plan to me.

Hader is cheap and effective. A couple of years from now? Totally on board with trading him. But trading from a position of weakness to address another weakness doesn’t make sense to me.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: October 06, 2019, 11:07 PM Post
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PeaveyFury said:
Never Outhustled said:
Knebel and Pomeranz.

Much easier to find a reliever than a stud SS. If Hader fades, it will be those 2 even if Hader is here.


Pomeranz is a free agent and Knebel is coming off a major arm injury. Seems like a bad/dangerous plan to me.

Hader is cheap and effective. A couple of years from now? Totally on board with trading him. But trading from a position of weakness to address another weakness doesn’t make sense to me.


Hader IS cheap and effective, that's what makes him a valuable trade chip.

The bullpen is by far the strength of the team. We have a good OF as well. Having a strong and deep position player group and starting pitching is more important/fundamental than having a closer. A back end bullpen of Knebel, Black, Peralta, D Williams, Burnes and Pomeranz (if signed) has a very high ceiling/potential if not a long track record of reliability. There aren't many "reliable" relievers (including Hader...heck even Kimbrel as we saw this year).

I'm afraid of signing a few expensive veteran FAs to fill holes and have them flop, and have Hader becoming less effective and more expensive (thus losing trade value). With the farm system we currently have we could get stuck in a very bad place very quickly and for many years on end forcing us to trade Woodruff, Yelich, Hiura and completely start over. I think we can re-stock right now and put ourself in a decent position to win NOW with Braun and Cain still around AND build around Yelich, Hiura, Woodruff, +(whoever we get from a Hader trade) to win throughout the 2020s.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: October 07, 2019, 9:13 AM Post
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Hader is one of the very few big trade chips we have that can really help to bring in a much needed (and more important to the team) Shortstop.

Relief Pitchers are volatile by nature, year to year.

His production is trending downwards.

Yes, I'd trade him...

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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: October 07, 2019, 10:04 AM Post
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3and2Fastball said:
Hader is one of the very few big trade chips we have that can really help to bring in a much needed (and more important to the team) Shortstop.

Relief Pitchers are volatile by nature, year to year.

His production is trending downwards.

Yes, I'd trade him...


I have a tough time seeing the Brewers outwardly shopping Hader this winter. But it wouldn't surprise me to see a team offer of a package of prospects or MLB talent that makes Stearns consider it, though.

I personally can't see Hader being dealt. But if he is, it's going to be for a huge haul. I could see a team with highly ranked systems like the Braves, Padres, White Sox, Rays, and Phillies making a godfather-type offer. The Dodgers and Astros are also possibilities.

Every one of those teams has pieces that are either already on the MLB roster, or are MLB-ready, that the Brewers would be interested in.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: October 07, 2019, 11:15 AM Post
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I don't see the incremental value being there for a team to offer the mammoth deal people think it would take to pry Hader. You offer the farm for Christian Yelich, not for a RP when most of the suitors can just go out buy someone not as good, but good enough without dealing prospects.

I doubt he gets traded, but if he does, I think most of this place would be very underwhelmed by the return.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: October 10, 2019, 5:38 AM Post
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OldSchoolSnapper said:
I don't see the incremental value being there for a team to offer the mammoth deal people think it would take to pry Hader. You offer the farm for Christian Yelich, not for a RP when most of the suitors can just go out buy someone not as good, but good enough without dealing prospects.

I doubt he gets traded, but if he does, I think most of this place would be very underwhelmed by the return.


While I normally very much agree with opinion, the fact that the Dodgers lost is dramatic fashion last night due to their bullpen will definitely have them making changes in the offseason. As someone said a few posts ago, Hader is much more valuable to a team like the Dodgers than a team like the Giants. A player like Hader in Dodger stadium is a Chapman type acquisition. If they come calling, Stearns should listen and see what can be pried away. If they dangled Lux and May, I would hope there would be a conversation there. Resign Moose, Lux and SS, Keston at 2b, Thames/Braun at first is a pretty darn good infield. RP like Hader are not a dime a dozen, but if Stearns wants to consistently push for the playoffs, this might be the best way to go about it.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: October 10, 2019, 6:06 AM Post
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Mudville9 said:
OldSchoolSnapper said:
I don't see the incremental value being there for a team to offer the mammoth deal people think it would take to pry Hader. You offer the farm for Christian Yelich, not for a RP when most of the suitors can just go out buy someone not as good, but good enough without dealing prospects.

I doubt he gets traded, but if he does, I think most of this place would be very underwhelmed by the return.


While I normally very much agree with opinion, the fact that the Dodgers lost is dramatic fashion last night due to their bullpen will definitely have them making changes in the offseason. As someone said a few posts ago, Hader is much more valuable to a team like the Dodgers than a team like the Giants. A player like Hader in Dodger stadium is a Chapman type acquisition. If they come calling, Stearns should listen and see what can be pried away. If they dangled Lux and May, I would hope there would be a conversation there. Resign Moose, Lux and SS, Keston at 2b, Thames/Braun at first is a pretty darn good infield. RP like Hader are not a dime a dozen, but if Stearns wants to consistently push for the playoffs, this might be the best way to go about it.


I agree ... last night's pen implosion from the Dodgers is going to have them in a panic to make major upgrades in the pen. Hader is one of the most electric pen arms out there. The move makes a lot of sense, which means it's likely to not happen. But if the Dodgers dangled a couple players like Lux, Seager, May or Will Smith for Hader, Stearns would have to listen.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: October 10, 2019, 6:11 AM Post
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Mudville9 said:
OldSchoolSnapper said:
I don't see the incremental value being there for a team to offer the mammoth deal people think it would take to pry Hader. You offer the farm for Christian Yelich, not for a RP when most of the suitors can just go out buy someone not as good, but good enough without dealing prospects.

I doubt he gets traded, but if he does, I think most of this place would be very underwhelmed by the return.


While I normally very much agree with opinion, the fact that the Dodgers lost is dramatic fashion last night due to their bullpen will definitely have them making changes in the offseason. As someone said a few posts ago, Hader is much more valuable to a team like the Dodgers than a team like the Giants. A player like Hader in Dodger stadium is a Chapman type acquisition. If they come calling, Stearns should listen and see what can be pried away. If they dangled Lux and May, I would hope there would be a conversation there. Resign Moose, Lux and SS, Keston at 2b, Thames/Braun at first is a pretty darn good infield. RP like Hader are not a dime a dozen, but if Stearns wants to consistently push for the playoffs, this might be the best way to go about it.


Not sure how Hader would have changed things if the manager never puts him in the game.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: October 10, 2019, 6:14 AM Post
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endaround said:
Mudville9 said:
OldSchoolSnapper said:
I don't see the incremental value being there for a team to offer the mammoth deal people think it would take to pry Hader. You offer the farm for Christian Yelich, not for a RP when most of the suitors can just go out buy someone not as good, but good enough without dealing prospects.

I doubt he gets traded, but if he does, I think most of this place would be very underwhelmed by the return.


While I normally very much agree with opinion, the fact that the Dodgers lost is dramatic fashion last night due to their bullpen will definitely have them making changes in the offseason. As someone said a few posts ago, Hader is much more valuable to a team like the Dodgers than a team like the Giants. A player like Hader in Dodger stadium is a Chapman type acquisition. If they come calling, Stearns should listen and see what can be pried away. If they dangled Lux and May, I would hope there would be a conversation there. Resign Moose, Lux and SS, Keston at 2b, Thames/Braun at first is a pretty darn good infield. RP like Hader are not a dime a dozen, but if Stearns wants to consistently push for the playoffs, this might be the best way to go about it.


Not sure how Hader would have changed things if the manager never puts him in the game.


I think what he saying is if the Dodgers would have had Hader, they would have played it much differently last night. It was pretty obvious that Roberts didn't trust Jansen.


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