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Is it time to consider moving Hader

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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#21

Posted: July 05, 2019, 1:46 AM Post
Posts: 1392
trwi7 said:
TexasCheesehead said:
I’d argue we have the best pitcher in all of baseball right now


There is no cogent argument that could be made for this.



Best relief pitcher....and I'd argue that I don't really care about best as much as valuable and Hader's not as valuable this year as he was last year.

Still, unless we can actually get what some people are proposing...and I really doubt we can, we might as well hold onto him for another year or two and see where we're at then.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#22

Posted: July 05, 2019, 5:57 AM Post
Posts: 3060
RollieTime said:
TexasCheesehead said:
I’d argue we have the best pitcher and best hitter in all of baseball right now, both controlled for 4 more years. Why would you mess with that?


Let’s say you could get a package like this right now for Hader.

OF Yordan Alvarez
RHP Corbin Martin
RHP J.B. Bukauskas
1B Seth Beer

You get 6 years of a power hitting lefty to play in left field, having your outfield locked up for 4 years. Martin you could slot into the rotation right away and let him continue to develop at the MLB level. Hoping that he heads into 2020 as a mainstay in the rotation. Bukauskas has the makings of being a dominant relief pitcher and could slot into the bullpen mid-season 2020. Beer would give the Brewers a legit first base prospect, something that they do not have in the minors or at the MLB level for that matter.

Assuming that the Brewers retain one of Grandal or Moose after this season, you could head into 2020 with a 1-5 of:

CF Cain
RF Yelich
2B Hiura
LF Alvarez
3B Moose/C Grandal

Hiura and Alvarez would each have 6 years of control. Pairing those two with Yelich for multiple years would give the Brewers a very strong young nucleus to build around with your main 3 guys making under $17 million combined each of the next 3 seasons. Braun’s contract would be off the books the following season and allow Stearns to go out and get another big bat to add to the mix.

Having 4+ years of control of Woodruff, Burnes, Peralta, Martin, and Bukauskas to pair with Nelson if he returns and Davies, would give the Brewers a lot to be excited about on the pitching side as well.

The selling of Hader isn’t the start of a rebuild. It’s retooling the roster to add a cheap impact bat like Alvarez for 6 years while adding other high end talent to the system. I can tell you one thing though. 6 years of Hiura and Alvarez hitting in the middle of the lineup with Yelich is pretty dang exciting.


Great post.
This is exactly what Stearns should be doing, calling the Rays, Twins, Astros, Dodgers, Braves, even the Padres, and get the best prospect package he can get for Hader THIS deadline, he will never be more valuable than he is right now. Disagree with some that say we can get just as much when he has 3 yrs of control. These teams have the prospect package available to satisfy Stearns. Might be 2 or 3 top 50-75 with 2-3 more youngins 125-200. I trust Stearns to sell high enough on Hader to completely re-tool. Then go spend on rental pen arms, get a rental bat and still compete for the central this year.

This is a sellers market. Hader could tip the scales to teams like the dodgers, Astros, Twins, Braves, Rays.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#23

Posted: July 05, 2019, 6:18 AM Post
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Posts: 370
OnTheBlack said:
trwi7 said:
TexasCheesehead said:
I’d argue we have the best pitcher in all of baseball right now


There is no cogent argument that could be made for this.



Best relief pitcher....and I'd argue that I don't really care about best as much as valuable and Hader's not as valuable this year as he was last year.

Still, unless we can actually get what some people are proposing...and I really doubt we can, we might as well hold onto him for another year or two and see where we're at then.



Virtually every statistic, Hader is better this year than last year. Lower ERA, lower WHIP, better ERA+, better K/9....how exactly was he more valuable last season?


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#24

Posted: July 05, 2019, 8:49 AM Post
Posts: 2056
TexasCheesehead said:
OnTheBlack said:
trwi7 said:

There is no cogent argument that could be made for this.



Best relief pitcher....and I'd argue that I don't really care about best as much as valuable and Hader's not as valuable this year as he was last year.

Still, unless we can actually get what some people are proposing...and I really doubt we can, we might as well hold onto him for another year or two and see where we're at then.



Virtually every statistic, Hader is better this year than last year. Lower ERA, lower WHIP, better ERA+, better K/9....how exactly was he more valuable last season?


I assume he meant he isn't as valuable in his usage to the team. Instead of matching him up with the other teams meat of the order or the string of tough lefties anywhere between the 6-9 innings - now he closer to regular closer usage. That isn't on Hader, as the rest of the pen just has not been good enough.


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Online  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#25

Posted: July 05, 2019, 8:56 AM Post
Posts: 1894
No offense to anyone here, but i'm not sure why this is being discussed even?? If Stearns gets off his ass and actually makes some trades to make this team better THIS year, then there is no reason they can't make the playoffs. And next year, I also see zero reason why Moose AND Grandal can't both be signed(they can be), so what have you lost?? That team could be competitive for several years yet as is(with the addition of a few key pieces for the next couple of years). Worry about the future when it's time to worry about it. The time for them to be competitive and be a "big boy" baseball team is now and the next few years.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#26

Posted: July 05, 2019, 8:57 AM Post
Posts: 3819
RollieTime said:
Let’s say you could get a package like this right now for Hader.

OF Yordan Alvarez
RHP Corbin Martin
RHP J.B. Bukauskas
1B Seth Beer

The problem is that I don't think this package is even remotely reasonable.

but it's not like every guy suddenly forgot every piece of advice he gave


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#27

Posted: July 05, 2019, 9:06 AM Post
Posts: 490
Brewcrewin07 said:
No offense to anyone here, but i'm not sure why this is being discussed even?? If Stearns gets off his ass and actually makes some trades to make this team better THIS year, then there is no reason they can't make the playoffs. And next year, I also see zero reason why Moose AND Grandal can't both be signed(they can be), so what have you lost?? That team could be competitive for several years yet as is(with the addition of a few key pieces for the next couple of years). Worry about the future when it's time to worry about it. The time for them to be competitive and be a "big boy" baseball team is now and the next few years.

Because both Moose and Grandal are free agents after this year, so they can go wherever they would like, the Brewers don't control them. With the seasons' they're having, they're both going to command contracts much higher than what they're making this year.


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Online  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#28

Posted: July 05, 2019, 10:09 AM Post
Posts: 5238
Location: New Berlin, WI
I don't think they Brewers would get max value by trading Hader now. Generally a team isn't going to adequately pay for 4+ years of team control. If we are intending to trade Hader, it would probably best to do so with 1.5-2.5 years of team control. That probably matches up roughly with this window of contention anyways and when we'd have to retool/rebuild.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#29

Posted: July 05, 2019, 10:14 AM Post
Posts: 93
Location: Mequon
No. Hader has 4.5yrs remaining and this team is tied for first in the division and still has a bunch of talent to compete for the WS over the next couple seasons.

Yelich is going to make an absolute killing once his contract is up after 2022 so I'd worry about trading him before Hader. I wouldn't do anything until after 2020 at the very earliest but more closer to the 2021 deadline/after season.


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Online  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#30

Posted: July 05, 2019, 10:24 AM Post
Posts: 5238
Location: New Berlin, WI
Wahoo Maniac said:
No. Hader has 4.5yrs remaining and this team is tied for first in the division and still has a bunch of talent to compete for the WS over the next couple seasons.

Yelich is going to make an absolute killing once his contract is up after 2022 so I'd worry about trading him before Hader. I wouldn't do anything until after 2020 at the very earliest but more closer to the 2021 deadline/after season.


This is about where I'm at. We should for sure be trying to win this year and next year, 2021 will be a decision year where we consider trading some of our elite players if we fall out of contention. And I said consider, doesn't mean we should necessarily do it. But that would be roughly a time we could max out value on Yelich and Hader.


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Online  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#31

Posted: July 05, 2019, 12:31 PM Post
Posts: 886
Location: Washburn, WI
82brewcrew82 said:
RollieTime said:
Let’s say you could get a package like this right now for Hader.

OF Yordan Alvarez
RHP Corbin Martin
RHP J.B. Bukauskas
1B Seth Beer

The problem is that I don't think this package is even remotely reasonable.


Alvarez is the number 11 prospect in baseball right now. Martin and Bukauskas are ranked 48th and 98th respectively. Beer will probably be in the 75-100 range when the next rankings come out. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to get 1 top 15 guy and 3 guys in the 50-100 range for 4.5 seasons (5 postseason runs) of the top reliever in the game. The Brewers have the most sought after reliever in the game playing at the league minimum. The Astros could turn around and move him with 2 years left on his contract and get a couple highly regarded prospects back down the road.

I don’t think I would want to move Hader right now with 4.5 years of control, but a package like that would be hard to turn down.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#32

Posted: July 05, 2019, 12:44 PM Post
Posts: 758
Corbin Martin also just had Tommy John surgery the other day, fwiw.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#33

Posted: July 05, 2019, 12:49 PM Post
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Posts: 5476
82brewcrew82 said:
RollieTime said:
Let’s say you could get a package like this right now for Hader.

OF Yordan Alvarez
RHP Corbin Martin
RHP J.B. Bukauskas
1B Seth Beer

The problem is that I don't think this package is even remotely reasonable.



I see Corbin Martin is now set for Tommy John surgery

- - - - - - - - -
P.I.T.C.H. LEAGUE CHAMPION 1989, 1996, 1999, 2000, 2006, 2007, 2011 (finally won another one)


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#34

Posted: July 05, 2019, 1:17 PM Post
Posts: 3060
There’s also risk involved in waiting to trade Hader. Risk from injury, and risk of regression, even if only slightly.

With that said let’s get the franchise altering trade done, 4-5 top prospects THAT CAN ALSO BE TRADED FOR TOP PLAYERS TO HELP US WIN NOW!

We can get a couple quality pen arms to solidify the backend, without giving up too much prospect capitol. And an offensive piece.

Still win now! Still win now, just without Hader, and with 4-5 top prospects we can use to plug any holes.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#35

Posted: July 05, 2019, 2:33 PM Post
Posts: 723
How did this topic even get started? There is zero incentive to trading him. Rookie contract and best reliever in baseball. Also, we are still tied for first. Just don’t get it.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#36

Posted: July 06, 2019, 10:41 AM Post
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Posts: 18826
ThisIsMyCrew said:
There is zero incentive to trading him.


Sure there is. Relievers are so volatile. Edwin Diaz was every bit as good as Hader was last year, if not better and now he has an ERA pushing 6 with a FIP of around 4 and is giving up hard contact nearly half the time. Same is true for Blake Treinen and Jose Leclerc and Jose Alvarado and Jeurys Familia and Joakim Soria and Jeremy Jeffress and Dellin Betances.

Cards' fans wear jorts.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#37

Posted: July 06, 2019, 11:09 AM Post
Posts: 3060
trwi7 said:
ThisIsMyCrew said:
There is zero incentive to trading him.


Sure there is. Relievers are so volatile. Edwin Diaz was every bit as good as Hader was last year, if not better and now he has an ERA pushing 6 with a FIP of around 4 and is giving up hard contact nearly half the time. Same is true for Blake Treinen and Jose Leclerc and Jose Alvarado and Jeurys Familia and Joakim Soria and Jeremy Jeffress and Dellin Betances.


Exactly.
That’s why Stearns should trade as high on Hader as he can as quickly as he can. THIS DEADLINE. The haul would be historic and franchise altering. With Stearns & co’s brainpower we could parlay the haul into multiple all star type players at multiple positions, giving this team a better chance to win NOW and during Yelich’s window.


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Online  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#38

Posted: July 06, 2019, 12:05 PM Post
Posts: 886
Location: Washburn, WI
trwi7 said:
ThisIsMyCrew said:
There is zero incentive to trading him.


Sure there is. Relievers are so volatile. Edwin Diaz was every bit as good as Hader was last year, if not better and now he has an ERA pushing 6 with a FIP of around 4 and is giving up hard contact nearly half the time. Same is true for Blake Treinen and Jose Leclerc and Jose Alvarado and Jeurys Familia and Joakim Soria and Jeremy Jeffress and Dellin Betances.


Yup. I suggested trading Knebel the last two offseasons now and it really would of been wise to do so. He was bad most of last season before the final month. He probably regained most of his value back by being so dominant late in the year and in the postseason. Now he is missing all of this season.

For the Brewers to have continued success, they need to make moves to keep filtering young talent into the organization. Trading relief pitchers after career years is a fantastic way of doing that. Moving guys like Tyler Thornburg, Knebel, and Hader is something the Brewers should continue exploring each and every offseason. With Hader’s odd throwing motion and how hard he pitches, he is definitely a TJ candidate in his career. If he needs TJ surgery in June of next year and can’t pitch in the postseason for us in 2020 and misses all of 2021 as well, now you’re down to 2 years of control and his value at rock bottom. The window of opportunity to cash in on him would be gone.

There’s a lot to consider in regards of what to do with Hader.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#39

Posted: July 06, 2019, 12:18 PM Post
Posts: 93
Location: Mequon
Brew crew 92 said:
trwi7 said:
ThisIsMyCrew said:
There is zero incentive to trading him.


Sure there is. Relievers are so volatile. Edwin Diaz was every bit as good as Hader was last year, if not better and now he has an ERA pushing 6 with a FIP of around 4 and is giving up hard contact nearly half the time. Same is true for Blake Treinen and Jose Leclerc and Jose Alvarado and Jeurys Familia and Joakim Soria and Jeremy Jeffress and Dellin Betances.


Exactly.
That’s why Stearns should trade as high on Hader as he can as quickly as he can. THIS DEADLINE. The haul would be historic and franchise altering. With Stearns & co’s brainpower we could parlay the haul into multiple all star type players at multiple positions, giving this team a better chance to win NOW and during Yelich’s window.

Except most of the pitchers mentioned are older or didn't have Hader's pedigree/out of the gate dominant relief profile. When Hader came up everyone knew he was going to dominate out of the pen. He's surprised nobody and guys like him don't regress to the point they're worth mush less or even little. Edwin Diaz is 25 with 3yrs control remaining - if you think his 2019 is how he's going to perform moving forward and his value is dead then you'll believe anything. Hader's value isn't going anywhere unless he suffers a significant injury.

This team is in 1st place in their division and will be super competitive for the rest of this year and 2020. Come 2021 is when they need to start discussing when to trade both of them as Yelich will have 2yrs remaining at that point with Hader 3yrs. Until then they're going to help this team win so there's no point in even discussing it further because he's not going to be traded before then. Aroldis Chapman brought back an elite prospect (Torres), another Top 80 (McKinney), MLB pen arm (Warren) + flyer and he only had 2 months control. Trading Hader with 2yrs+ control will still bring an absolute monster haul and in the meantime we'll continue to get dominating performances from him. Same goes for Yelich as no way we're paying him 30-35M annually.


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Online  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#40

Posted: July 06, 2019, 12:31 PM Post
Posts: 4707
I get that its disappointing the brewers aren't 20 games over 500 and they have plenty if warts, but they are still a 1st place team in a deep division. For what they did over the offseason, it would be foolish at this point to sell, particularly with Hader.

Ride it out, if they tank over the next few weeks then they should look long and hard at trading guys like Moose and Grandal, maybe some other relievers who are actually having good years like Albers...Hader has too much team friendly control left for the brewers to ever actually get equal value in return by dealing him now - maybe they revisit that option 2 offseasons from now.

Odds are much higher that they add, not sell, by july 31st.


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