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Is it time to consider moving Hader

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Online  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#81

Posted: July 08, 2019, 4:07 PM Post
Posts: 2919
brewcrewdue80 said:
Brew crew 92 said:
brewcrewdue80 said:
Hader via JAWS on BRef is already 513th all-time for Relievers. And you can likely pencil him in to be top 375 by season's end. He's on a HOF arch at the moment. You never trade that, I dont care if its Vlad Jr. Extension talks should be considered after this season. You at least lock up his salary and give an extra 2 years control. Late inning. RP position solved for another 6years.

Any poster here that even agreed to a Hader trade in this thread should be temporarily banned until after the trade deadline. Ya'll are that ridiculous to bring that idea here.


Funny post.

Never in a trillion lifetimes, should he or would he extend Hader, way too high an injury risk over the 6 years. He’s a pitcher that throws nothing but fastballs, and it’s been shown that fastballs are hardest on the elbow. I’ll stop there.


How's that Fastball injury rate working for Aroldis Chapman? You do know Hader can throw more than just fbs right? He's 25. Not 31. Nobody you replace him with will be near ad good as him. Now you waste 7-14million a year paying for mediocre replacements. Makes sense with the amount of whining already on how record payroll is still being cheap.


127 is only a record payroll because of how low the payrolls have chronically been, imo.

Fixed it.


Last edited by Brew crew 92 on July 08, 2019, 6:36 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#82

Posted: July 08, 2019, 4:09 PM Post
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This forum is slowly dying because of posts like the one above. When will it end?

"I'm not as good as I was but in big moments I'm still the guy. I want that opportunity." -Ryan Braun


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#83

Posted: July 08, 2019, 4:32 PM Post
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Brew crew 92 said:
127 is only a record payroll because of how low the payrolls have chronically been. But most here on this site that have read the info know this already, but won’t ever admit they were wrong, if for no reason than this factual payroll talk was started by me, the most despised poster of all.


The Brewers having more money to spend this year (or any year) based upon current revenue and payroll is your opinion, period. There isn't a single poster here qualified to make a definitive statement on the Brewers ability to add payroll of any specific dollar amount as FACT.

Unless you work for the Brewers and have access to all the numbers (not just the public ones, and not just the ones you have posted, but ALL of them) and have access to their business model, their budget, etc, etc, you are guessing just like all of the rest of us. You might well be making a well educated one based upon the numbers available and some good guesstimates based on those not available, and your opinion might even align with the realities of what is going on in the Brewers front office, but at the end of the day it doesn't change the fact that you are guessing and offering opinions.

Since EVERYONE here can only offer an opinion on this topic and NOBODY can speak on this topic factually, there is no reason for ANYONE to admit they are wrong. This is a discussion forum, not a whose right and whose wrong forum.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#84

Posted: July 08, 2019, 5:40 PM Post
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Brew4U said:
This forum is slowly dying because of posts like the one above. When will it end?


I'd go a step further and say this forum is slowly dying due to the one or two posters making those posts...

I have been checking in a lot less because of the constant annoyance associated with those posters.


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Online  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#85

Posted: July 08, 2019, 6:44 PM Post
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Reading complaints about posters is just thrilling though.

Step 1: Click Private Msg
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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#86

Posted: July 08, 2019, 6:45 PM Post
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I don’t think the Brewers can win a World Series as presently constructed.

That doesn’t mean I won’t root for them. That doesn’t mean I don’t enjoy following them. That doesn’t mean they won’t win a lot of games. It is what it is. Though I think it’s unlikely, I’d support a total tear down. Success in sports, much like life, depends on one’s ability to delay gratification.


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Online  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#87

Posted: July 08, 2019, 7:12 PM Post
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nodakfan17 said:
I don’t think the Brewers can win a World Series as presently constructed.

That doesn’t mean I won’t root for them. That doesn’t mean I don’t enjoy following them. That doesn’t mean they won’t win a lot of games. It is what it is. Though I think it’s unlikely, I’d support a total tear down. Success in sports, much like life, depends on one’s ability to delay gratification.


Not sure Bud Selig & Bob Uecker would agree with your tear down idea.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#88

Posted: July 08, 2019, 7:17 PM Post
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trwi7 said:
Reading complaints about posters is just thrilling though.

Step 1: Click Private Msg
Step 2: Select Friends & Foes at the bottom of Options on the left side
Step 3: Go to Manage Foes on the left side
Step 4: Add users to your Foe list
Step 5: Click Submit
Step 6: Steal underpants


Blocking a poster just ruins the flow of threads though. Especially posters who post frequently, REALLY frequently.

Some things come up out of context, and you are left wondering what the heck is going on...


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#89

Posted: July 09, 2019, 8:58 PM Post
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Eye Black said:
nate82 said:
You can cross off the Rays, Twins, and Braves. These type of moves are things they don't normally do especially the Rays.

The Twins front office is now led by Derek Falvey. The Twins have done a masterful job building a competitive roster since his hire in the Fall of 2016. Falvey and Stearns were with the Cleveland Indians at the same time in 2012 (they were co-directors of baseball operations), with Stearns reportedly focused on player contracts, data analysis, and strategy, while Falvey worked on player acquisitions. During 2015-2016 Falvey was the Indians Asst. GM, which included pulling off the Andrew Miller trade at the deadline in 2016 (trading away Clint Frazier, Justus Sheffield, Ben Heller, and J.P. Feyereisen) on their way to playing in the World Series. That was the same July that the Brewers and Indians came to terms on a Jonathan Lucroy deal that was ultimately nixed by Lucroy.

I wouldn’t completely count out the Twins as a team that may make some big trade headlines at some point. They have the prospect inventory to do it, and if Falvey and company believe they have a legitimate chance to play for the World Series than they may be incentivized to make a big splash.


I just don't see the Twins as a match with the Brewers after Alex Kirilloff and Royce Lewis you have Trevor Larnach and Brusdar Graterol who are good but I don't see the Twins giving up Graterol for Hader.

Miller is probably the deal you want to get if you are trading Hader. That would mean Graterol, Larnach, and a couple of other pieces from the Twins minor league system. That seems to be light but wouldn't be bad. I still don't see the Twins doing that as it is giving up a lot for a maybe in the playoffs.

The Astros have been very stingy with their prospects but if they were to offer a deal it would probably be center around J.B. Bukauskas and Freudis Nova. Again another light return for Hader.

The Dodgers probably make the most sense if you could get them to give up Gavin Lux or Dustin May, Josiah Gray, Jeren Kendall and another piece for Hader. The Dodgers would be the closest thing to the Miller trade.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#90

Posted: July 09, 2019, 9:56 PM Post
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I keep going back and forth on this.

When Andrew Miller was traded he was 31 years old with 2.5 years left on his contract at $9M/yr. Hader is 25 years old with 4.5 years left of control--1.5 years at the league minimum and 3 years of arbitration.

If the Brewers trade Hader they should and will get an historic return. I don't think they will, as nobody will step up to the plate to rightfully give the Brewers 2X-3X the prospect value that Miller got when he was traded.

Next year at the deadline, Hader will still have 3.5 years of control left, and I would guess that the prospect haul would almost be the same as if he is traded this year. Thus, don't trade him til then at the earliest and make a good run at it this year (and next year).


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#91

Posted: July 10, 2019, 9:03 AM Post
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Brew crew 92 said:
nodakfan17 said:
I don’t think the Brewers can win a World Series as presently constructed.

That doesn’t mean I won’t root for them. That doesn’t mean I don’t enjoy following them. That doesn’t mean they won’t win a lot of games. It is what it is. Though I think it’s unlikely, I’d support a total tear down. Success in sports, much like life, depends on one’s ability to delay gratification.


Not sure Bud Selig & Bob Uecker would agree with your tear down idea.


I must have missed the announcement where they're running the team now.


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#92

Posted: July 10, 2019, 12:46 PM Post
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Imagine, seriously, just imagine our bullpen without Hader at this point in time...

*shudder*

We trade Hader, to me, that means we are throwing in the towel for this season, and quite possibly, the next few.

I hate the fact that when we get nice things, the typical Brewer fan reaction is that we must trade them off...


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Online  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#93

Posted: July 10, 2019, 12:54 PM Post
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turborickey said:
Imagine, seriously, just imagine our bullpen without Hader at this point in time...

*shudder*

We trade Hader, to me, that means we are throwing in the towel for this season, and quite possibly, the next few.

I hate the fact that when we get nice things, the typical Brewer fan reaction is that we must trade them off...


Oh please. He plays a third of the team's games and we have some quality bullpen pieces currently and another coming back next year. Trading Hader wouldn't be the end of the franchise. if some team overpays it might vault us into a new or longer window of contention.

Cards' fans wear jorts.


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Online  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#94

Posted: July 10, 2019, 12:57 PM Post
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turborickey said:
Imagine, seriously, just imagine our bullpen without Hader at this point in time...

*shudder*

We trade Hader, to me, that means we are throwing in the towel for this season, and quite possibly, the next few.

I hate the fact that when we get nice things, the typical Brewer fan reaction is that we must trade them off...


I don't see any way this team would even consider the idea of dealing Hader. We act like relief pitchers are interchangeable, when they really aren't. Why in the world would a team with playoff plans THIS SEASON, and for the next several to come, trade off arguably the best relief pitcher in the game? That makes beyond no sense.


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Online  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#95

Posted: July 10, 2019, 2:00 PM Post
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KeithStone53151 said:
MrTPlush said:
Dodgers are probably the most logical team because they have to be getting desperate to win and Hader could honestly put them over the top. However that much control of Hader is arguably worth one of the premier prospects in the game...not sure the Dodgers possess that. The Astros have the prospects, no doubt, but they may not be that desperate to trade away their reinforcements. Braves are an interesting possibility.


This won't happen, but for pure speculation purposes...I think something like Verdugo + Lux + Smith could be interesting, also add in them taking Braun and his contract. No way the Dodgers would be willing to give that up, but I think it has to be something like that to give up Hader. All those guys are either MLB ready or in the upper minors and very close to MLB ready.


If we could get a package like that from the Dodgers, sign me up! Obviously losing Hader in the pen would be a huge blow. There is nothing wrong with taking a step back for one season, bringing in a ton of young talent, and being set up nicely heading into 2020.

Verdugo would slot into right or left field for 5 years with Yelich playing the other corner outfield spot. We can move Braun to 4th outfielder, first base, and PH for his last season with us without him really being a liability with the extra roster spot beginning next season.

The Dodgers are really starting to feel pressure to win a World Series and could make an all-in trade like this to put them over the top. The Dodgers have a very deep lineup where even if they move Verdugo, they would still field one of the top offenses in the game. They’ve had pretty poor production from 2nd this season as well and may want Moose included in a trade.

Brewers receive:

OF Alex Verdugo
SS/2B Gavin Lux
C/3B Will Smith
1B/3B Edwin Rios
LHP John Rooney

Dodgers receive:
LHP Josh Hader
2B Mike Moustakas

This trade would give the Brewers Verdugo to slot into the outfield for 5+ years, a highly regarded prospect in Lux, an MLB ready young catcher, and a couple other intriguing prospects.

I could see Moose resigning with us in the offseason as well, similar to KRod. The Brewers can head into 2020 with Verdugo, Cain, and Yelich in the outfield. With Moose/Shaw, Arcia/Lux, Hiura, and Aguilar/Braun/Moose at first.

Now this is getting way ahead of myself, but the Brewers would be very lefty heavy for hitters if they went this route, but if they were to let Thames and Grandal walk, you free up $25 million. I’m a big fan of Anthony Rendon. If the Brewers could get him for 5/$125, I would be interested in him. He would be a big right handed bat to add to the lineup and allow Shaw to be the backup at third and play first with Braun.

CF Cain
LF Yelich
3B Rendon
RF Verdugo
2B Hiura
1B Moose
C Pina/Will Smith from Dodgers trade
SS Arcia/possibly Lux?
P

This would have Shaw, Braun, and Aguilar on the bench. As we know, there are always guys getting off days and injuries coming up where there would be plenty of opportunities for at-bats for everyone. But that would be a very exciting lineup that would have everybody with 3+ years of control and some great young talent that could step up and really contribute.


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Online  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#96

Posted: July 10, 2019, 2:06 PM Post
Posts: 2919
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
turborickey said:
Imagine, seriously, just imagine our bullpen without Hader at this point in time...

*shudder*

We trade Hader, to me, that means we are throwing in the towel for this season, and quite possibly, the next few.

I hate the fact that when we get nice things, the typical Brewer fan reaction is that we must trade them off...


I don't see any way this team would even consider the idea of dealing Hader. We act like relief pitchers are interchangeable, when they really aren't. Why in the world would a team with playoff plans THIS SEASON, and for the next several to come, trade off arguably the best relief pitcher in the game? That makes beyond no sense.


If the brewers are going to continue to have payrolls 75-100 million less than the Cubbies Dodgers Phillies Giants etc., imo, they are going to have to conduct business differently than most teams. Out of the box thinking is a must. The brewers have already done this with regards to how they deploy their pitching staff, I would argue, drafting, with certain unique characteristics in their pitchers especially, etc.

Not sure how many high payroll teams, that if they had Hader, would trade him when they had 4 1/2 years of control, > 0?

But that’s the type of move we should be making now. Get the massive haul of premium prospects NOW, when Haders at his peak in value. I’ve heard just about everyone on this site tell me we could get just as much for Hader next year, I disagree, but even if that’s true, so what, by selling now, I’m still protecting myself from injury or regression, which in and of itself is very important, but I’m also getting these PREMIUM prospects into my system NOW, not in a year, time matters, and a brilliant GM, can plug in any ML ready prospect NOW, stash and develop, and or flip for more ML ready stars, strengthening the team. It also allows for more liberal use of existing prospects in our system to be used to fix our back end bullpen hole.

In all likelihood Yelich is traded after next season, so, I want a stronger team next next year than this year, and adding 5 premium prospects now definitely helps achieve that goal.


Last edited by Brew crew 92 on July 10, 2019, 2:32 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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Online  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#97

Posted: July 10, 2019, 2:16 PM Post
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Brew crew 92 said:

In all likelihood Yelich is traded after next season ...


Huh? You have an MVP signed to an affordable long-term deal, and you want to deal him in his athletic prime with two full seasons of control remaining? Who's crazy "likelihood" are you living in?


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Offline  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#98

Posted: July 10, 2019, 2:23 PM Post
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Joey Meyer Bombs said:
Brew crew 92 said:

In all likelihood Yelich is traded after next season ...


Huh? You have an MVP signed to an affordable long-term deal, and you want to deal him in his athletic prime with two full seasons of control remaining? Who's crazy "likelihood" are you living in?

Yelich will command a price we can’t and won’t pay. He has 3yrs left. So he’s either traded after 2020 or 2021 because you don’t sell him with 2 months control nor do you keep him and let him walk.


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Online  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
#99

Posted: July 10, 2019, 2:27 PM Post
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Wahoo Maniac said:
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
Brew crew 92 said:

In all likelihood Yelich is traded after next season ...


Huh? You have an MVP signed to an affordable long-term deal, and you want to deal him in his athletic prime with two full seasons of control remaining? Who's crazy "likelihood" are you living in?

Yelich will command a price we can’t and won’t pay. He has 3yrs left. So he’s either traded after 2020 or 2021 because you don’t sell him with 2 months control nor do you keep him and let him walk.


Yelich is signed through the 2022 season. The last year of the deal is a $15 million team option. I could understand perhaps dealing him after the 2021 season, but it makes next to no sense to look at doing it after 2020.


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Online  Re: Is it time to consider moving Hader
Posted: July 10, 2019, 2:47 PM Post
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How about 2 1/2 times the prospect haul. 2 years of Yelich is “control”, one year is a rental. Massive difference in prospect haul.

This is what we have to do. 200 million payroll, things obviously would be different. Trading Yelich, isn’t out of the box thinking, imo, it’s a no brainer.


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