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Shop Lorenzo Cain?

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Offline  Re: Shop Lorenzo Cain?
#61

Posted: August 21, 2019, 2:58 PM Post
Posts: 757
I like Cain being on this team for the next few years. This year is just a bump in the road.


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Offline  Re: Shop Lorenzo Cain?
#62

Posted: August 21, 2019, 3:05 PM Post
Posts: 3060
adambr2 said:
Tyrone Taylor is essentially a non-prospect at this point and could be a 40 man casualty anytime we need the space. I hardly even know what to think of any analysis that he could just come right up and replace Cain's production.


I don’t believe he’s a non- prospect, the guy has been injured virtually all year, mulligan time, imo. He came into this year back on the radar after his best year in 18, sure looked good in ST, then got injured.


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Offline  Re: Shop Lorenzo Cain?
#63

Posted: August 22, 2019, 1:18 AM Post
Posts: 1392
Brew crew 92 said:
adambr2 said:
Tyrone Taylor is essentially a non-prospect at this point and could be a 40 man casualty anytime we need the space. I hardly even know what to think of any analysis that he could just come right up and replace Cain's production.


I don’t believe he’s a non- prospect, the guy has been injured virtually all year, mulligan time, imo. He came into this year back on the radar after his best year in 18, sure looked good in ST, then got injured.



How is that different than Corey Ray? Other than Ray was more highly regarded, drafted higher and had a better year last year?


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Offline  Re: Shop Lorenzo Cain?
#64

Posted: August 22, 2019, 4:43 AM Post
Posts: 3113
No one is giving us anything for Cain. It’s better to hold on to him and hope he bounces back next year.


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Offline  Re: Shop Lorenzo Cain?
#65

Posted: August 22, 2019, 5:01 AM Post
Posts: 3060
OnTheBlack said:
Brew crew 92 said:
adambr2 said:
Tyrone Taylor is essentially a non-prospect at this point and could be a 40 man casualty anytime we need the space. I hardly even know what to think of any analysis that he could just come right up and replace Cain's production.


I don’t believe he’s a non- prospect, the guy has been injured virtually all year, mulligan time, imo. He came into this year back on the radar after his best year in 18, sure looked good in ST, then got injured.



How is that different than Corey Ray? Other than Ray was more highly regarded, drafted higher and had a better year last year?


Because of a potentially historic K rate > Ray ^ 40+%. Personally don’t want another Lewis Brinson lite type player that at best takes 5 years in the big leagues to learn how to hit well enough to offset a ridiculous K rate.


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Offline  Re: Shop Lorenzo Cain?
#66

Posted: August 23, 2019, 1:27 AM Post
Posts: 1392
Brew crew 92 said:
Because of a potentially historic K rate > Ray ^ 40+%. Personally don’t want another Lewis Brinson lite type player that at best takes 5 years in the big leagues to learn how to hit well enough to offset a ridiculous K rate.



Yeah, prospect status isn't about what you want as evidenced by MLB pipeline's Brewers ranking. Ray-4th, Taylor-27th.

Everything you said;

I don’t believe he’s a non- prospect, the guy has been injured virtually all year, mulligan time, imo. He came into this year back on the radar after his best year in 18, sure looked good in ST, then got injured.


Is applicable to Ray.


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Offline  Re: Shop Lorenzo Cain?
#67

Posted: August 23, 2019, 1:34 AM Post
Posts: 1392
Boomer5 said:
No one is giving us anything for Cain. It’s better to hold on to him and hope he bounces back next year.



I don't think the idea was to actually get value for Cain, more dump his salary, of which we'd pay some of it-in order to clear salary cap room, open up playing time for Grisham and potentially better use that money elsewhere.

I'm sure we could move him, pay...I don't, 10 of the 50 remaining and get back a lottery ticket, but I think Cain's likely to bounce back and I don't think his contract will look nearly as bad when his luck averages out.


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Online  Re: Shop Lorenzo Cain?
#68

Posted: August 23, 2019, 7:36 AM Post
Posts: 2001
Location: Madison, WI
Even with Cain's offensive struggles, he sure has passed the eye-test as a real defensive asset in centerfield. Metrics back that up. +17 DRS, +10.1 UZR/150. That's a big impact considering Braun has been just awful in LF and Yelich has had his share of miscues in right field. This pitching staff has enough trouble because it isn't very good, and it would probably look even worse if Cain's superior defense was taken out of the mix.


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Offline  Re: Shop Lorenzo Cain?
#69

Posted: August 23, 2019, 9:31 AM Post
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Location: Chicago
The Brewers don't typically include cash in their trades, and aren't likely to pay cash for Cain to play against them, and no team is going to take the 54 million left on his contract. He will be a Brewer for the next two years and likely all three that are left on his deal.


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Offline  Re: Shop Lorenzo Cain?
#70

Posted: August 23, 2019, 10:05 AM Post
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I also think the Brewers don't include cash on trades because they have not signed too many terrible contracts and are selective when they do it.

They usually kick off their assumed competitive window with these contracts. Lohse, Garza, Suppan all were 3-4 year deals with "OK, we've got our core and here is our extra contract to try to bolster the rotation."

By the time the wheels completely fall off on the contention window and the signing they made, the guy has something like 1-2 years, $25 million left and the Brewers are looking at a 1-2 year rebuild. So there's no point of throwing money in to get rid of Garza. Instead, just let them rot and pray for value to trade away later.


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Offline  Re: Shop Lorenzo Cain?
#71

Posted: August 27, 2019, 6:04 AM Post
Posts: 3060
JosephC said:
Even with Cain's offensive struggles, he sure has passed the eye-test as a real defensive asset in centerfield. Metrics back that up. +17 DRS, +10.1 UZR/150. That's a big impact considering Braun has been just awful in LF and Yelich has had his share of miscues in right field. This pitching staff has enough trouble because it isn't very good, and it would probably look even worse if Cain's superior defense was taken out of the mix.


As helpful as Cain is to the pitching staff because of his defense, his offense has become so abysmal(.252 .331 .679 > 76 ops+)it’s killing this offense. Especially when his poor RISP is factored in. Then consider Counsell bats him directly in front of Yelich most games and it’s no wonder this offense can’t get going.

It’s too late to do anything about it this year. But, to me at least, this is a major issue this offseason for Stearns, and I’ll be fascinated to see what he does about it. The easy decision would be to think he’ll just rebound next season and stand pat. The harder decision is to trade. The smart decision imo, is to trade. If he has another year like 2019, this team is done, so why take the chance?


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Offline  Re: Shop Lorenzo Cain?
#72

Posted: August 27, 2019, 6:13 AM Post
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Location: Milwaukee, WI
Cain is killing the offense because CC refuses to permanently remove him from the lead off position.

"I'm not as good as I was but in big moments I'm still the guy. I want that opportunity." -Ryan Braun


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Offline  Re: Shop Lorenzo Cain?
#73

Posted: August 27, 2019, 6:45 AM Post
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Brew crew 92 said:
The easy decision would be to think he’ll just rebound next season and stand pat. The harder decision is to trade. The smart decision imo, is to trade. If he has another year like 2019, this team is done, so why take the chance?


Trading him would end up being extremely tough, because the Brewers would need to either eat a large portion of his remaining contract, include a upper-end prospect(s) in a deal to get a team to take on Cain's contract, or take on a similar horrible contract for an underperforming past-his-prime veteran (good luck finding one of those). You make it sound like if they don't want him they can just trade him off easy peasy, and it just doesn't work like that.


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Offline  Re: Shop Lorenzo Cain?
#74

Posted: August 27, 2019, 6:48 AM Post
Posts: 4972
Cain's thumb injury has definitely affected his offensive performance this year - easy to forget he had the 2nd highest WAR value in 2018 among position players behind Yelich in the NL.

It would be silly to try trading him this offseason unless there's concern his thumb issue is a permanent problem. To me it's worth the "risk" to hope an offseason of rest or rehab away from the daily grind of 162 games can get Cain's thumb right and expect him to perform closer to career norms at the plate in 2020.


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Offline  Re: Shop Lorenzo Cain?
#75

Posted: August 27, 2019, 7:17 AM Post
Posts: 5069
Location: Madison, WI
JMB nails it on the trade scenario. Which several of us have said many times but of course it continues to be ignored for hot takes.

FYI: Cain has a .375 OBP in August. Site I'm on goes monthly but doesn't go date by date, my quick math on the last 10 days of July puts him at .357 for that stretch. So he's actually been fairly good for a little over a month now, while of course still playing gold glove D. What an idiot our manager is for batting him in front Yeli!!!


Last edited by tmwiese55 on August 27, 2019, 7:45 AM, edited 1 time in total.

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Offline  Re: Shop Lorenzo Cain?
#76

Posted: August 27, 2019, 7:34 AM Post
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tmwiese55 said:
JMB, nails it on the trade scenario. Which several of us have said many times but of course it continues to be ignored for hot takes.

FYI: Cain has a .375 OBP in August. Site I'm on goes monthly but doesn't go date by date, my quick math on the last 10 days of July puts him at .357 for that stretch. So he's actually been fairly good for a little over a month now, while of course still playing gold glove D. What an idiot our manager is for batting him in front Yeli!!!


If they deal him, they are going to have to take back a contract like Johnny Cueto's, who still has two years and nearly $50 million remaining. Would you take the chance on a 34-year-old coming off TJ surgery and making that kind of money the next two seasons? Because that's the type of player you are going to get back unless you decide to eat a huge portion of Cain's remaining deal ... but then, what would be the point?

If the Brewers had a surefire young CF option waiting in the wings who could come in and provide some semblance of near the offense and defense that Cain provides, then I'd get it more. But they don't have that. Grisham may be able to provide the offense, but he's not a CF, and never will be.


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Offline  Re: Shop Lorenzo Cain?
#77

Posted: August 27, 2019, 8:40 AM Post
Posts: 3060
The Thumb is an big time issue moving forward. So is his being another year past prime. So is his bad year. So is his contract. In my opinion Stearns can trade him for his salary, at worst a few million going the other way. There’s a team out there for him, it’s just not the brewers. If we pay down to 15 per to trade, what could this team do with 15 million to spend elsewhere?


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Offline  Re: Shop Lorenzo Cain?
#78

Posted: August 27, 2019, 8:45 AM Post
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Brew crew 92 said:
The Thumb is an big time issue moving forward. So is his being another year past prime. So is his bad year. So is his contract. In my opinion Stearns can trade him for his salary, at worst a few million going the other way. There’s a team out there for him, it’s just not the brewers. If we pay down to 15 per to trade, what could this team do with 15 million to spend elsewhere?


So those are issues for the Brewers, but not for a team looking to trade for him? What in the world makes you think that they'd be able to deal Cain without taking a bath or not having to take an equal horrible contract in return?


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Offline  Re: Shop Lorenzo Cain?
#79

Posted: August 27, 2019, 2:17 PM Post
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We dont have a replacement for Cain. It's trending poorly and '21 and '22 will likely be ugly years for Lorenzo--but he's under contract and we don't have a replacement for him. He'll still very likely be the best defensive outfielder in our organization. If we dump him or trade him we'll need to replace him with somebody who might be a better value than Cain but also probably wont have the upside that Cain has.

He's going to be a Brewer for the next 2 years at a minimum.


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Online  Re: Shop Lorenzo Cain?
#80

Posted: August 28, 2019, 9:15 AM Post
Posts: 2001
Location: Madison, WI
I pretty much see it the same way as Oxy. Based on the scouting reports, I really doubt if the Brewers view Clark as starting 150 games in centerfield at the major league level. Even if the Brewers were to get modest offers with an opposing team taking all of Cain's salary, I'd guess that Stearns would still keep him even if he's only projecting Cain to be about a .320 OBP/.390 SLUG type hitter. His defense brings significant value, and Stearns probably wouldn't want to make a bad pitching staff look even worse by compromising the centerfield defense.


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