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Shortstop for 2020

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Offline  Re: Shortstop for 2020
Posted: November 03, 2019, 11:17 PM Post
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The Weatherman
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I'm glad I'm not the only one on the Arcia 2020 bandwagon. At this moment the guy is a textbook example of the kind of player the Brewers like to pursue in signings/trades...young, 3 years of team control, underachieving, etc.

I do not care at all that he has sucked for 2 years in a row. He already has one year of not sucking under his belt and the odds a 25 year old with that much big league experience will eventually figure it out are better than 50/50. And given the potential replacements being thrown around it's clear that the odds of Arcia breaking out are far higher than any of these other guys coming in and doing a better job.

Is Arcia a future star? No. But he would hardly be the first meh baseball player to put up a couple good years in his prime, and his prime comes at a very low price to the Brewers. The Brewers who are going to need a lot to go right to get back to the playoffs in 2020 and do not have the resources to do anything about shortstop. Arcia 2020!!!


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Offline  Re: Shortstop for 2020
Posted: November 04, 2019, 12:36 AM Post
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owbc said:
I do not care at all that he has sucked for 2 years in a row.


Really? That's a pretty big deal to me. I'd like to improve the areas of weakness on the club and shortstop has been the biggest weakness on the team for the better part of 4 years now.


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Offline  Re: Shortstop for 2020
Posted: November 04, 2019, 1:16 AM Post
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adambr2 said:
owbc said:
I do not care at all that he has sucked for 2 years in a row.


Really? That's a pretty big deal to me. I'd like to improve the areas of weakness on the club and shortstop has been the biggest weakness on the team for the better part of 4 years now.


If he was 29 like Travis Shaw then I would definitely care that he sucked.

I agree about wanting to improve SS, I just don't think the external options are more likely to succeed than just going with Arcia again and hoping he gets better. Which I will admit is a less-than-ideal solution. And having some cheap alternatives around is a good idea.


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Offline  Re: Shortstop for 2020
Posted: November 04, 2019, 1:54 AM Post
Posts: 19183
owbc said:
adambr2 said:
owbc said:
I do not care at all that he has sucked for 2 years in a row.


Really? That's a pretty big deal to me. I'd like to improve the areas of weakness on the club and shortstop has been the biggest weakness on the team for the better part of 4 years now.


If he was 29 like Travis Shaw then I would definitely care that he sucked.

I agree about wanting to improve SS, I just don't think the external options are more likely to succeed than just going with Arcia again and hoping he gets better. Which I will admit is a less-than-ideal solution. And having some cheap alternatives around is a good idea.


I can't totally disagree on what the available alternatives might be. I'd guess they are probably kicking around some trade ideas but unless they are really going to go all-in on a big fish like Seager I don't know what will really be out there.

I'd go all-in if Lindor became available to the extent of centerpiecing a deal around Hader, but if the Indians do make Lindor available I doubt that is the direction they will want to go.

Jean Segura is a guy who might be relatively inexpensive as far as trade capital goes, but I don't know if the Phillies will really be looking to move him unless they have other big plans for their middle infield in 2020. It's not like they can't afford Segura's contract.


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Online  Re: Shortstop for 2020
Posted: November 04, 2019, 6:18 AM Post
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We probably targeted players like Arcia in the past cause we were yearly losers trying to find a needle in a haystack. Contending teams don’t like the Arcia’s of the world.

His one decent year really gets talked up like it was something special. 2.5 WAR and a .731 OPS...not all that great.


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Online  Re: Shortstop for 2020
Posted: November 04, 2019, 7:15 AM Post
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owbc said:
adambr2 said:
owbc said:
I do not care at all that he has sucked for 2 years in a row.


Really? That's a pretty big deal to me. I'd like to improve the areas of weakness on the club and shortstop has been the biggest weakness on the team for the better part of 4 years now.


If he was 29 like Travis Shaw then I would definitely care that he sucked.

I agree about wanting to improve SS, I just don't think the external options are more likely to succeed than just going with Arcia again and hoping he gets better. Which I will admit is a less-than-ideal solution. And having some cheap alternatives around is a good idea.


It is going to be interesting to see what happens this offseason. I tend to agree that the external choices, at least in the free agent market, look pretty bleak, so I'm at the point where I'm ready to bank on Arcia realizing his upside rather than go out and grab a guy that doesn't offer any. Of course, they could very well be looking at the trade market for a possible upgrade. I do agree that we need more production out of that spot. I just am not ready to write off the idea that Orlando Arcia can offer that increased production.


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Offline  Re: Shortstop for 2020
Posted: November 04, 2019, 7:57 AM Post
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MrTPlush said:
We probably targeted players like Arcia in the past cause we were yearly losers trying to find a needle in a haystack. Contending teams don’t like the Arcia’s of the world.

His one decent year really gets talked up like it was something special. 2.5 WAR and a .731 OPS...not all that great.

I disagree in that finding needles in haystacks is a core operating principal for this organization, not some temporary measure to cobble together a roster. Has Arcia been acceptable the last two years, no. Are the realistic alternatives acceptable, probably not. Is a .731 OPS great, no, but it is acceptable assuming the rest of the line up is viable.

If the team can add a catcher, a TOR starting pitcher, an alternative at third, a bullpen arm or two and a RH platoon option at 1st, then I'd worry about Arcia. Every one of those other items are more pressing in my mind.

but it's not like every guy suddenly forgot every piece of advice he gave


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Online  Re: Shortstop for 2020
Posted: November 04, 2019, 8:12 AM Post
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82brewcrew82 said:
not some temporary measure to cobble together a roster.
If the team can add a catcher, a TOR starting pitcher, an alternative at third, a bullpen arm or two and a RH platoon option at 1st, then I'd worry about Arcia. Every one of those other items are more pressing in my mind.



I didn't say it was to just cobble together a roster. When you are a rebuilding team you can afford to take chances on guys and hope they miraculously find out how to use their long lost potential they apparently had. You aren't trying to win 90+ games so if the player bombs it means nothing to the team in the short term.

The Brewers are not in that kind of position and taking a slight upgrade with a known ceiling versus hoping for an Arcia breakout is typically the wiser move.


Last edited by MrTPlush on November 04, 2019, 8:40 AM, edited 1 time in total.

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Offline  Re: Shortstop for 2020
Posted: November 04, 2019, 8:37 AM Post
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Arcia & Iglesias will probably cost a relatively cheap 6-7 million combined & you get both a high floor with Jose (1.5+ WAR each of last five seasons) & the possibility of maybe some magic with Orlando.


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Online  Re: Shortstop for 2020
Posted: November 04, 2019, 8:41 AM Post
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sveumrules said:
Arcia & Iglesias will probably cost a relatively cheap 6-7 million combined & you get both a high floor with Jose (1.5+ WAR each of last five seasons) & the possibility of maybe some magic with Orlando.


That might be the best bet. Get a regular starter in Iglesias who is by no means a world beater, but can provide some consistency. Keep Orlando as a sub that can come in and provide late game defense (with Iglesias shifting to 2B for Hiura), and play when you can capitalize off Arcia's hot streaks. I'm just not comfortable giving up on Orlando completely.


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Offline  Re: Shortstop for 2020
Posted: November 04, 2019, 12:04 PM Post
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The Weatherman
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Joey Meyer Bombs said:
sveumrules said:
Arcia & Iglesias will probably cost a relatively cheap 6-7 million combined & you get both a high floor with Jose (1.5+ WAR each of last five seasons) & the possibility of maybe some magic with Orlando.


That might be the best bet. Get a regular starter in Iglesias who is by no means a world beater, but can provide some consistency. Keep Orlando as a sub that can come in and provide late game defense (with Iglesias shifting to 2B for Hiura), and play when you can capitalize off Arcia's hot streaks. I'm just not comfortable giving up on Orlando completely.


I could see it. It would not get the Brewers to league average SS production but at least it would (most likely) get them out of last place.

The Brewers do not have the luxury of acting like a "contending team" in this situation...a "contending team" might trade minor leaguers for a better SS but we do not have much in the system to trade. It might be different if the FA market was better, but .800+ OPS shortstops with plus defense are a rare commodity. That's why Arcia will probably be the opening day SS in 2020. And there is a decent chance he will be there in 2021 and 2022 as well.


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Offline  Re: Shortstop for 2020
Posted: November 04, 2019, 4:46 PM Post
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The ties cut today hint towards going an entirely new direction in my opinion. Thames was a value at $7.5 million given his production. Arcia's production is non-existent. I've also never seen Stearns so openly call out a player when citing the need for more offensively and defensively as he publicly did with Arcia. That doesn't scream hoping for improvement from the same player to me. My gut tells me they're tired of this "all or nothing HR offense" and are trying to build a more balanced lineup. Either put the ball in play and get on base or hit balls over the fence, with a good mix of both. Arcia really does neither.


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Offline  Re: Shortstop for 2020
Posted: November 04, 2019, 6:39 PM Post
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Didi did not get extended the QO today.


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Online  Re: Shortstop for 2020
Posted: November 04, 2019, 6:51 PM Post
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What will Arcia's attitude be like if we went the route mentioned above? I can see him not liking that situation one single bit and becoming a problem in the clubhouse.

"I'm sick of runnin' from these wimps!" Ajax - The WARRIORS


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Offline  Re: Shortstop for 2020
Posted: November 04, 2019, 6:51 PM Post
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MrTPlush said:
82brewcrew82 said:
not some temporary measure to cobble together a roster.
If the team can add a catcher, a TOR starting pitcher, an alternative at third, a bullpen arm or two and a RH platoon option at 1st, then I'd worry about Arcia. Every one of those other items are more pressing in my mind.



I didn't say it was to just cobble together a roster. When you are a rebuilding team you can afford to take chances on guys and hope they miraculously find out how to use their long lost potential they apparently had. You aren't trying to win 90+ games so if the player bombs it means nothing to the team in the short term.

The Brewers are not in that kind of position and taking a slight upgrade with a known ceiling versus hoping for an Arcia breakout is typically the wiser move.

I guess I just disagree with the principal that this team that doesn't take chances on guys. They take chances constantly on players and I think that is a necessary strategy for a team like this. The roster was literally littered with players they took chances on.

but it's not like every guy suddenly forgot every piece of advice he gave


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Offline  Re: Shortstop for 2020
Posted: November 04, 2019, 6:53 PM Post
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wallus said:
Didi did not get extended the QO today.

If the Brewers don't re-sign Grandal, Didi is probably my second choice of "realistic" position player targets. (assuming rendon and donaldson are not in the "budget")


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Online  Re: Shortstop for 2020
Posted: November 04, 2019, 7:18 PM Post
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turborickey said:
What will Arcia's attitude be like if we went the route mentioned above? I can see him not liking that situation one single bit and becoming a problem in the clubhouse.


[rolling eyes] Give me a break. You based this on what?

"I'm not as good as I was but in big moments I'm still the guy. I want that opportunity." -Ryan Braun


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Online  Re: Shortstop for 2020
Posted: November 04, 2019, 7:38 PM Post
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Joey Meyer Bombs said:

It is going to be interesting to see what happens this offseason. I tend to agree that the external choices, at least in the free agent market, look pretty bleak, so I'm at the point where I'm ready to bank on Arcia realizing his upside rather than go out and grab a guy that doesn't offer any. Of course, they could very well be looking at the trade market for a possible upgrade. I do agree that we need more production out of that spot. I just am not ready to write off the idea that Orlando Arcia can offer that increased production.


I think this is very fair. The Brewers have limited financial resources, and after today, have holes to fill at C, 3B, SS, 1B, and need about 3 arms between the bullpen and rotation. They have internal candidates that COULD fill 3B and SS, if you bank on Shaw and Arcia. Of the two, Arcia is the smarter choice as he's cheaper and still has age-based potential to figure it out. If you're going to need to use resources elsewhere, as they likely will need to, hoping for one more year with Arcia is probably the smartest financial play.


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Offline  Re: Shortstop for 2020
Posted: November 04, 2019, 7:47 PM Post
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Arcia is 324 Plate Appearances away from securing his place on the Brewers Wall of Honor.


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Online  Re: Shortstop for 2020
Posted: November 04, 2019, 8:27 PM Post
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Brew4U said:
turborickey said:
What will Arcia's attitude be like if we went the route mentioned above? I can see him not liking that situation one single bit and becoming a problem in the clubhouse.


[rolling eyes] Give me a break. You based this on what?


Over-react much?

I asked a simple question. What will Arcia's attitude be if he is demoted to a late inning replacement?

I'm not basing it on anything, I am stating what could happen, and it wouldn't surprise me if the situation happened, that he would be extremly unhappy, which could cause issues in the clubhouse.

"I'm sick of runnin' from these wimps!" Ajax - The WARRIORS


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