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Resigning Grandal & Moose

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Online  Re: Resigning Grandal & Moose
#41

Posted: October 02, 2019, 7:56 AM Post
Posts: 4645
Really, when you look at it, the Brewers will have the following catcher situation in the minors:

AAA: Nottingham, Freitas, Hummel(?)
AA: Felliciano, Henry(?), Fry(?),Hummel(?)
A+: Henry(?), Fry(?)

Hummel hasn't played much catcher, and with the OF time, I wonder if the Brewers aren't trying to make him a poor man's Eric Thames or Josh Bell. He still can play catcher, which opens some possibilities as a bench player. He has superb on-base skills, and he's flashing some very big power. Think Mickey Tettleton.

Nottingham, I think, is being groomed to replace Pina as the #2 catcher. He has a lot of familiarity with the younger pitchers over the years.

If I'm Stearns, I offer Grandal a longer deal, 5 years, $90 million.
$10 million bonus
2020: $16 million, $5 million deferred
2021: $16 million, $5 million deferred
2022: $16 million, $5 million deferred
2023: $16 million, $5 million deferred
2024: $16 million, $5 million deferred

Pay the deferred money over ten years.

Use him at catcher through 2022, then he takes over at first base when some combo of some of Feliciano/Henry/Fry/Hummel works out. The NL will also get the DH, and Grandal would be a good fit for that in the latter part of the deal.


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Online  Re: Resigning Grandal & Moose
#42

Posted: October 02, 2019, 8:02 AM Post
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Posts: 9486
clancyphile said:
Really, when you look at it, the Brewers will have the following catcher situation in the minors:

AAA: Nottingham, Freitas, Hummel(?)
AA: Felliciano, Henry(?), Fry(?),Hummel(?)
A+: Henry(?), Fry(?)

Hummel hasn't played much catcher, and with the OF time, I wonder if the Brewers aren't trying to make him a poor man's Eric Thames or Josh Bell. He still can play catcher, which opens some possibilities as a bench player. He has superb on-base skills, and he's flashing some very big power. Think Mickey Tettleton.

Nottingham, I think, is being groomed to replace Pina as the #2 catcher. He has a lot of familiarity with the younger pitchers over the years.

If I'm Stearns, I offer Grandal a longer deal, 5 years, $90 million.
$10 million bonus
2020: $16 million, $5 million deferred
2021: $16 million, $5 million deferred
2022: $16 million, $5 million deferred
2023: $16 million, $5 million deferred
2024: $16 million, $5 million deferred

Pay the deferred money over ten years.

Use him at catcher through 2022, then he takes over at first base when some combo of some of Feliciano/Henry/Fry/Hummel works out. The NL will also get the DH, and Grandal would be a good fit for that in the latter part of the deal.


Cooper Hummel ... you mean the guy who didn't log one inning as a catcher in 2019, after getting a grand total of 64 innings in 2018? Yeah, he's not a catcher. Interesting prospect. But not a catcher.


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Online  Re: Resigning Grandal & Moose
#43

Posted: October 02, 2019, 9:10 AM Post
Posts: 4645
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
clancyphile said:
Really, when you look at it, the Brewers will have the following catcher situation in the minors:

AAA: Nottingham, Freitas, Hummel(?)
AA: Felliciano, Henry(?), Fry(?),Hummel(?)
A+: Henry(?), Fry(?)

Hummel hasn't played much catcher, and with the OF time, I wonder if the Brewers aren't trying to make him a poor man's Eric Thames or Josh Bell. He still can play catcher, which opens some possibilities as a bench player. He has superb on-base skills, and he's flashing some very big power. Think Mickey Tettleton.

Nottingham, I think, is being groomed to replace Pina as the #2 catcher. He has a lot of familiarity with the younger pitchers over the years.

If I'm Stearns, I offer Grandal a longer deal, 5 years, $90 million.
$10 million bonus
2020: $16 million, $5 million deferred
2021: $16 million, $5 million deferred
2022: $16 million, $5 million deferred
2023: $16 million, $5 million deferred
2024: $16 million, $5 million deferred

Pay the deferred money over ten years.

Use him at catcher through 2022, then he takes over at first base when some combo of some of Feliciano/Henry/Fry/Hummel works out. The NL will also get the DH, and Grandal would be a good fit for that in the latter part of the deal.


Cooper Hummel ... you mean the guy who didn't log one inning as a catcher in 2019, after getting a grand total of 64 innings in 2018? Yeah, he's not a catcher. Interesting prospect. But not a catcher.


He's probably an emergency catcher at this point, don't get me wrong.

I think it is a mistake to not have him behind the plate, that offensive profile is Grandal-light. Down to the switch-hitting.


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Online  Re: Resigning Grandal & Moose
#44

Posted: October 02, 2019, 9:13 AM Post
Posts: 12150
Catchers suck, Pina is a starting caliber guy. Probably middle of the pack production wise. He is an amazing back up because we basically have a starter as a back up.

I just don't see spending money on Grandal as logical. We have a starting caliber guy in Pina and we can find a decent back up somewhere. With payroll tight having a top catcher seems like a luxury...not a priority. I am basing this off him finding a nice 3+ year deal...if he ends up only getting 2 years it is a much different story.


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Online  Re: Resigning Grandal & Moose
#45

Posted: October 02, 2019, 9:23 AM Post
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Posts: 13663
Location: Milwaukee, WI
MrTPlush said:
Catchers suck, Pina is a starting caliber guy. Probably middle of the pack production wise. He is an amazing back up because we basically have a starter as a back up.

I just don't see spending money on Grandal as logical. We have a starting caliber guy in Pina and we can find a decent back up somewhere. With payroll tight having a top catcher seems like a luxury...not a priority. I am basing this off him finding a nice 3+ year deal...if he ends up only getting 2 years it is a much different story.


This is exactly where I am at. If they find a nice 1B catcher to Pina, the production will be just fine there. Use those resources elsewhere.

"I'm not as good as I was but in big moments I'm still the guy. I want that opportunity." -Ryan Braun


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Online  Re: Resigning Grandal & Moose
#46

Posted: October 02, 2019, 12:10 PM Post
Posts: 4645
MrTPlush said:
Catchers suck, Pina is a starting caliber guy. Probably middle of the pack production wise. He is an amazing back up because we basically have a starter as a back up.

I just don't see spending money on Grandal as logical. We have a starting caliber guy in Pina and we can find a decent back up somewhere. With payroll tight having a top catcher seems like a luxury...not a priority. I am basing this off him finding a nice 3+ year deal...if he ends up only getting 2 years it is a much different story.


When Pina wears down, he becomes an offensive black hole.

Grandal at least gives you a bunch of walks.

Grandal as the #1 C and #2 1B still gets Pina about 40-50 starts a year.

Plus, two other things:
1. The DH will come to the NL at some point, and sooner rather than later.
2. The Brewers do not have a long-term option for 1B after Thames leaves.

Grandal can address one or both of those.


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Online  Re: Resigning Grandal & Moose
#47

Posted: October 02, 2019, 1:21 PM Post
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clancyphile said:
When Pina wears down, he becomes an offensive black hole.



Which is exactly what we saw in 2018. He could not handle the full time catcher duty, but was pretty darn solid as a back up this year. Pina, to me, is a really really good back up catcher. If we can get him his 40 starts and pair him up with Grandal again, that would be awesome.

"I'm sick of runnin' from these wimps!" Ajax - The WARRIORS


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Online  Re: Resigning Grandal & Moose
#48

Posted: October 02, 2019, 2:16 PM Post
Posts: 12150
All this talk about Pina as a back up I would expect his numbers to actually be dramatically different. Except his OPS+ was a point higher last year...and really his numbers are hardly different. If he actually broke down I am not sure why he had 3 of his best months in the last 4 months of the year. His playing time was pretty consistent all year too.

I am simply not buying it. I doubt he is any different than any other catcher getting 'worn down' so it seems like a real weird thing to cling to. He is like many other catchers. They have ups and downs and aren't that good so bad months happen. Grandal is great, but I just don't see it being a good investment if the bidding is competitive. I just don't see him providing value that makes him worthy of $15mil or more than Pina/platoonmate. Especially when you consider the risk.

Also Grandal as a DH/1B...why would that ever happen? Pay him $15mil+ a year to be average at best for his position? Sounds terrible.


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Offline  Re: Resigning Grandal & Moose
#49

Posted: October 02, 2019, 2:25 PM Post
Posts: 4813
Location: Madison, WI
Generally agree with Plush here. Sure, I'd love to have Grandal back but if it requires something big then I think you have to let him go. I saw a 5 year deal proposed, no way for me on that. I think even getting to 3 years for 17-20ish mil is probably pushing it. But, it's not too crazy and I could see it. The closer to 15 per the more I get doing it, but if it just keeps going up beyond that I think you walk away knowing you have a solid guy to take his place next year. Then look for a cheap guy to pair with Pina if you're not confident in Notthingham (IDK a Suzuki type guy).

If you're having to choose to spend the money on him or Moose, as much as I think Moose is a touch overrated here I would go Moose since we have no one to take his place assuming Shaw is done. Plus, he'd be noticeably cheaper than Grandal.

All that said, I don't think we should diminish at all how crucial Grandal was to this September run. Don't think it happens without him.


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Online  Re: Resigning Grandal & Moose
#50

Posted: October 02, 2019, 2:26 PM Post
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Posts: 4547
Grandal is gone. Pina is probably a 15-20 catcher with regular PT. Pair him with some random guy and split the PT 2/1. Almost everyone's C sucks so just accept it's not going to be Grandal and improve the team elsewhere.


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Online  Re: Resigning Grandal & Moose
#51

Posted: October 02, 2019, 4:29 PM Post
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I shudder at the thought of running another catcher out there not named Grandal. We can't appreciate how much his bat meant to us until he is gone.

Without him, we go from a top of the order offensive threat, to a bottom of the order below average offensive detriment. The difference will be striking.

If he walks, our offense takes a MAJOR hit, as there is no one on our current roster, or available that even sniffs Grandals jockstrap.

Offer him a 3 year deal, maximum, but pay the man.

"I'm sick of runnin' from these wimps!" Ajax - The WARRIORS


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Offline  Re: Resigning Grandal & Moose
#52

Posted: October 02, 2019, 5:58 PM Post
Posts: 490
No doubt it’d be nice to have Grandal back. Also no doubt he will get a big contract. I hope the brewers try to retain him but stay reasonable. If he gets too expensive, pairing a cheap option like Vogt with Pina would be adequate and leave money for 3B, SS and pitching


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Offline  Re: Resigning Grandal & Moose
#53

Posted: October 02, 2019, 6:24 PM Post
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Location: Phoenix, AZ
Devinep said:
No doubt it’d be nice to have Grandal back. Also no doubt he will get a big contract. I hope the brewers try to retain him but stay reasonable. If he gets too expensive, pairing a cheap option like Vogt with Pina would be adequate and leave money for 3B, SS and pitching


There really isn't an upgrade worth the money to invest in free agency at SS or 3B. At 3B you have Rendon and unless you are ready to pay about double what Grandal is going to get in years and money it is not worth it there.


Beyond Grandal there isn't much available in free agency for upgrades offensively maybe Gregorius if you think he can bounce back or if you believe Donaldson has found the fountain of youth in Atlanta and will put up another good year or two.

If you are going to spend the money on offense it would be best to spend it on Grandal. Starting pitching there is more available and I would go after Wheeler or Odorizzi.


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Offline  Re: Resigning Grandal & Moose
#54

Posted: October 02, 2019, 8:31 PM Post
Posts: 2040
Really enjoy Moose's talent and energy, but we need Grandal more at the catching position. Calling for both back is terribly improbable for financial reasons and for the fact that both will look for long deals elsewhere.. Getting just one is possible, not probable... if it's clear that we cannot get Grandal, then Moose is a possible.


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Online  Re: Resigning Grandal & Moose
#55

Posted: October 02, 2019, 8:57 PM Post
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Location: Milwaukee, WI
What about Chirinos from Houston? He might be a guy that it only takes a one year deal. Steady and solid production for the last 3 season.

"I'm not as good as I was but in big moments I'm still the guy. I want that opportunity." -Ryan Braun


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Online  Re: Resigning Grandal & Moose
#56

Posted: October 02, 2019, 9:23 PM Post
Posts: 12150
So if one is adamant to sign Grandal and makes the assumption he and Moustakas both won’t return together:

Who on earth are you inserting at 3B that is affordable and isn’t breaking the bank...and probably not even close to denting the bank?


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Offline  Re: Resigning Grandal & Moose
#57

Posted: October 02, 2019, 10:56 PM Post
Posts: 88
Location: Wauwatosa, WI
MrTPlush said:
So if one is adamant to sign Grandal and makes the assumption he and Moustakas both won’t return together:

Who on earth are you inserting at 3B that is affordable and isn’t breaking the bank...and probably not even close to denting the bank?

Todd Frazier? He was basically average this year. But he might dent the bank. Otherwise yeah, I’m not sure...maybe Braun?


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Offline  Re: Resigning Grandal & Moose
#58

Posted: October 02, 2019, 11:07 PM Post
Posts: 395
Someone is going to pay Grandal a big contract. A 31 year old catcher, when some are already complaining about 33 year old CF? Pass! Reds zeroing in on Yaz. https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports ... 836840002/


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Offline  Re: Resigning Grandal & Moose
#59

Posted: October 03, 2019, 12:22 AM Post
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In my eyes not only is Moose more likely to be signed, he’s more likely to be worth the money, and also a bigger difference maker. Even if you want to theorize Shaw gets his mojo back Moose is also ok at 2b. Also Moustakas just doesn’t seem like a guy who is going to fall off a cliff.

I don’t think Grandal will either but a contract on him is really risky. It’s about at the juncture of when Toronto decided to pay Russell Martin. Seemed like a great idea at the time.

If we’re talking moose OR yaz I want moose. Nothing against Grandal exactly but it is very risky in my opinion.


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Offline  Re: Resigning Grandal & Moose
#60

Posted: October 03, 2019, 5:37 AM Post
Posts: 499
rickh150 said:
Really enjoy Moose's talent and energy, but we need Grandal more at the catching position. Calling for both back is terribly improbable for financial reasons and for the fact that both will look for long deals elsewhere.. Getting just one is possible, not probable... if it's clear that we cannot get Grandal, then Moose is a possible.


If Moose is gone who do the Brewers have to play 3B? Shaw is a disaster and nothing he has shown says he will return to form any time soon. There is absolutely nothing on the farm at 3B and nothing remotely close to Moose in the FA pool that is as affordable as he is. If Grandal goes they at least have Pina. If Moose goes they have nothing.


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