LambeauLeap1250 WSSP


  
Go to page Previous  1 ... 95, 96, 97, 98, 99  Next  [ 1977 posts ]  New Topic   Add Reply

Hader trade ideas

Author Message
Online  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: March 11, 2021, 7:23 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 3681
Location: California
JosephC said:
If I were San Diego's GM, I would not give the slightest consideration in trading Abrams for Hader straight-up because the numbers say it makes absolutely no sense to do so. Abrams average ranking on the Baseball America/Keith Law/MLB Pipeline top 100 lists is #13. On my board that would put his prospect surplus value at 80.9 million. I have Hader in the range of 30-35 million. Now if I were San Diego's GM and knew something about Abrams and thought that his real value should put him at about #60 on the top 100 list, then the trade would make sense numbers-wise.

While I agree with your sentiment, if I am a Padres fan, I want the Padres to make the moves necessary to win now. I get that is why fans are not GMs, but windows for teams like the Brewers and Padres are typically so small, making a trade that might hurt you at some point to complete a roster for not only 2021 but for 2022 & 2023 as well, may make some sense. I doubt the Cubs win the World Series in 2016 without trading Gleyber Torres for Aroldis Chapman and I don't think too many of their fans would trade that title for Torres playing SS.

You have a team that is ready to win the World Series now with Darvish, Snell, Lamet, Paddack, Musgrove in the rotation and Tatis-Machado-Grisham-Hosmer-Nola-Pham-Myers in the lineup. The only real weakness I see is a dominant closer like Hader. Imagine if in 2011, knowing Prince's impending FA meant a slight rebuild was coming if the Brewers had been able to trade their remaining top prospect for a top-flight SS to replace Betancourt. Maybe that might have made the difference between flaming out in the NLCS and winning the World Series. Who knows?

Hindsight is 20-20 but you never know when that window might slam shut because of injury, underperformance or the behemoths that are the Dodgers in your own division. The playoffs are not even guaranteed for the Padres if they underachieve just a little with the Dodgers in their division and the Mets, Braves, Nationals, and Phillies fighting it out in the East.

Perhaps I am a fan that is tired of not seeing my team winning a World Series, but if Abrams is the cost for Hader, if I am a Padre fan, I do it and don't blink an eye. I want that title.


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: March 11, 2021, 7:36 PM Post
Posts: 23023
Warning Track Power said:
JosephC said:
If I were San Diego's GM, I would not give the slightest consideration in trading Abrams for Hader straight-up because the numbers say it makes absolutely no sense to do so. Abrams average ranking on the Baseball America/Keith Law/MLB Pipeline top 100 lists is #13. On my board that would put his prospect surplus value at 80.9 million. I have Hader in the range of 30-35 million. Now if I were San Diego's GM and knew something about Abrams and thought that his real value should put him at about #60 on the top 100 list, then the trade would make sense numbers-wise.

While I agree with your sentiment, if I am a Padres fan, I want the Padres to make the moves necessary to win now. I get that is why fans are not GMs, but windows for teams like the Brewers and Padres are typically so small, making a trade that might hurt you at some point to complete a roster for not only 2021 but for 2022 & 2023 as well, may make some sense. I doubt the Cubs win the World Series in 2016 without trading Gleyber Torres for Aroldis Chapman and I don't think too many of their fans would trade that title for Torres playing SS.

You have a team that is ready to win the World Series now with Darvish, Snell, Lamet, Paddack, Musgrove in the rotation and Tatis-Machado-Grisham-Hosmer-Nola-Pham-Myers in the lineup. The only real weakness I see is a dominant closer like Hader. Imagine if in 2011, knowing Prince's impending FA meant a slight rebuild was coming if the Brewers had been able to trade their remaining top prospect for a top-flight SS to replace Betancourt. Maybe that might have made the difference between flaming out in the NLCS and winning the World Series. Who knows?

Hindsight is 20-20 but you never know when that window might slam shut because of injury, underperformance or the behemoths that are the Dodgers in your own division. The playoffs are not even guaranteed for the Padres if they underachieve just a little with the Dodgers in their division and the Mets, Braves, Nationals, and Phillies fighting it out in the East.

Perhaps I am a fan that is tired of not seeing my team winning a World Series, but if Abrams is the cost for Hader, if I am a Padre fan, I do it and don't blink an eye. I want that title.


Our farm system is loaded right now in comparison to how bad it was in 2011. There was definitely no top flight SS available for the likes of Kyle Heckathorn or Cody Scarpetta.


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: March 11, 2021, 11:21 PM Post
Posts: 208
adambr2 said:
If the Yankees want Hader, I want Jasson Dominguez. Stop insisting on MLB ready talent and focus on ceiling. This guy could be a franchise cornerstone.


Dominguez swings like Eric Thames. I have my doubts.


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: March 12, 2021, 12:08 AM Post
Posts: 23023
beekay414 said:
adambr2 said:
If the Yankees want Hader, I want Jasson Dominguez. Stop insisting on MLB ready talent and focus on ceiling. This guy could be a franchise cornerstone.


Dominguez swings like Eric Thames. I have my doubts.


He just turned 18 last month. I don't think you'll ever find a fully developed 18 year old prospect.


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: March 12, 2021, 12:31 AM Post
User avatar
Posts: 1011
Location: Chicago
adambr2 said:
beekay414 said:
adambr2 said:
If the Yankees want Hader, I want Jasson Dominguez. Stop insisting on MLB ready talent and focus on ceiling. This guy could be a franchise cornerstone.


Dominguez swings like Eric Thames. I have my doubts.


He just turned 18 last month. I don't think you'll ever find a fully developed 18 year old prospect.


Which is why teams don’t trade all star pitchers for 18 year old kids.


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: March 12, 2021, 4:11 AM Post
Posts: 23023
Jopal78! said:
adambr2 said:
He just turned 18 last month. I don't think you'll ever find a fully developed 18 year old prospect.


Which is why teams don’t trade all star pitchers for 18 year old kids.


Dominguez is not exactly your average 18 year old kid, he has the possible ceiling of a Mike Trout. And if he became even half as good as Trout, trading any reliever for him would be a homerun return.


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: March 12, 2021, 9:07 AM Post
User avatar
Posts: 1011
Location: Chicago
adambr2 said:
Jopal78! said:
adambr2 said:
He just turned 18 last month. I don't think you'll ever find a fully developed 18 year old prospect.


Which is why teams don’t trade all star pitchers for 18 year old kids.


Dominguez is not exactly your average 18 year old kid, he has the possible ceiling of a Mike Trout. And if he became even half as good as Trout, trading any reliever for him would be a homerun return.


Unfortunately, it doesn’t work that way in baseball. There are teams trying to compete, there are teams trying to rebuild, and there’s a couple that perpetually spin their wheels like the Angels and Rockies.

You’d be spot on if the Brewers were a 90 loss team, but they’re not. They are trying to win and may have the fewest question marks of any team in their division.

Breaking up a playoff caliber roster to get some A-ball player who may be awesome in three years is video game stuff, real GMs will never do it because it probably means getting fired in the process.

There’s just no pleasing sports fans though. A team can be a joke for twenty years and finally achieve consistent success yet their fans want them to blow it up and play for some mythical day in the future.


 Top
 
Online  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: March 12, 2021, 9:26 AM Post
User avatar
Posts: 15818
Location: Milwaukee, WI
The longest thread even and may never actually be traded.

"I'm not as good as I was but in big moments I'm still the guy. I want that opportunity." -Ryan Braun


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: March 12, 2021, 12:23 PM Post
Posts: 23023
Jopal78! said:

Unfortunately, it doesn’t work that way in baseball. There are teams trying to compete, there are teams trying to rebuild, and there’s a couple that perpetually spin their wheels like the Angels and Rockies.

You’d be spot on if the Brewers were a 90 loss team, but they’re not. They are trying to win and may have the fewest question marks of any team in their division.

Breaking up a playoff caliber roster to get some A-ball player who may be awesome in three years is video game stuff, real GMs will never do it because it probably means getting fired in the process.

There’s just no pleasing sports fans though. A team can be a joke for twenty years and finally achieve consistent success yet their fans want them to blow it up and play for some mythical day in the future.


First of all, an assertion that the Brewers may have the fewest question marks of any team in baseball is ....questionable to put it generously..

Secondly, I've been on record numerous times stating that I am perfectly content and even *pleased* to keep Hader because I also believe we are a contending team.

I simply stated (and others such as Reilly agreed) that if we were to deal Hader, I would want the greatest possible return, not necessarily the most MLB ready return.

And finally, Stearns/Arnold could trade Hader for Dominguez today, have Dominguez totally flame out and never play an inning in MLB, and they're still not getting fired for it.


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: March 12, 2021, 2:20 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 1011
Location: Chicago
adambr2 said:
Jopal78! said:

Unfortunately, it doesn’t work that way in baseball. There are teams trying to compete, there are teams trying to rebuild, and there’s a couple that perpetually spin their wheels like the Angels and Rockies.

You’d be spot on if the Brewers were a 90 loss team, but they’re not. They are trying to win and may have the fewest question marks of any team in their division.

Breaking up a playoff caliber roster to get some A-ball player who may be awesome in three years is video game stuff, real GMs will never do it because it probably means getting fired in the process.

There’s just no pleasing sports fans though. A team can be a joke for twenty years and finally achieve consistent success yet their fans want them to blow it up and play for some mythical day in the future.


First of all, an assertion that the Brewers may have the fewest question marks of any team in baseball is ....questionable to put it generously..If you read carefully it actually says Division

Secondly, I've been on record numerous times stating that I am perfectly content and even *pleased* to keep Hader because I also believe we are a contending team. Okay

I simply stated (and others such as Reilly agreed) that if we were to deal Hader, I would want the greatest possible return, not necessarily the most MLB ready return. I suppose it depends on your definition of "greatest". A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. In other words, more probably true than not, greatest possible return IS MLB ready players. Less risk than high ceiling players multiple levels away from the majors

And finally, Stearns/Arnold could trade Hader for Dominguez today, have Dominguez totally flame out and never play an inning in MLB, and they're still not getting fired for it.

Again ready carefully, it says if they "break up a playoff caliber team"


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: March 12, 2021, 2:40 PM Post
Posts: 23023
Yes, thanks. If they hold a fire sale to break up a playoff caliber team I also believe their jobs could be in trouble. I don't know why that would be debated or what that has to do with trading Hader in a vacuum.

I don't know if I necessarily agree that the greatest return is usually MLB ready players. Risk is ok. With risk often comes tremendous upside. However I do agree that the tolerance for risk is usually more dependent on how much of a contender you already are. But there are exceptions and in the case of Dominguez I believe his talent and upside would be worth making an exception.


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: March 12, 2021, 4:59 PM Post
Posts: 5466
If Dominguez is the next Mike Trout he should finish the season on the Yankees roster. (Or is that a year from now?) Checked he has a year. Or start the 2023 season for Acuna jr comparison.


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: March 12, 2021, 5:22 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 6497
Location: Phoenix, AZ
The idea is to keep on replenishing the talent pool and yes that means trading players like Hader. The Brewers are a small market team and they can't be major players in free agency every year it is just not going to happen. So if a team like the Yankees offer Dominguez for Hader you have to take it. While Hader is valuable he is not that valuable especially if you are being offered a really good prospect.

Dominguez and Abrams would be the two players I would just execute the trade on if they are available. I wouldn't even care who else were in it as either of these players could set the Brewers up for a long time. It is a risk but I am willing to take that risk and it is one that the Brewers should really be looking at.


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: March 12, 2021, 5:56 PM Post
Posts: 1495
Location: Washburn, WI
To be a perennial contender, it will involve trading players from the roster that are making an impact at the MLB level. The best way to do that will be to trade players that you have replacements for already in the upper minors. The issue for us is that we have little to no position players to do that with since the majority of our roster is free agent signings and/or replacement level players. Pitching is where we would need to deal from and I would say we are more than capable of replacing Hader with Williams coming on last season, Peralta looking like he has finally clicked, and other guys like Rasmussen and Suter making a big impact.

The Rays have continuously traded their pitchers over the years and keep churning out more through their acquisitions in trades and it is a model we need to do ourselves to remain competitive year after year. Will fans hate who we trade away? Some will because they don’t fully understand it. Rays fans might not like seeing their stars traded either, but it’s worked for them. If you continue to put a winning product on the field, that’s what matters and fans will continue to fill the park.

I created the thread on here I believe 3 years ago to trade Knebel coming off his huge season when the relief pitching market was hot. We didn’t capitalize on it and those are the types of moves we need to make. The value on the relief pitcher market seems to have diminished quite a bit since that time, but someone like Hader should still bring back quite the haul.


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: March 12, 2021, 9:10 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 1011
Location: Chicago
RollieTime said:
To be a perennial contender, it will involve trading players from the roster that are making an impact at the MLB level. The best way to do that will be to trade players that you have replacements for already in the upper minors. The issue for us is that we have little to no position players to do that with since the majority of our roster is free agent signings and/or replacement level players. Pitching is where we would need to deal from and I would say we are more than capable of replacing Hader with Williams coming on last season, Peralta looking like he has finally clicked, and other guys like Rasmussen and Suter making a big impact.

The Rays have continuously traded their pitchers over the years and keep churning out more through their acquisitions in trades and it is a model we need to do ourselves to remain competitive year after year. Will fans hate who we trade away? Some will because they don’t fully understand it. Rays fans might not like seeing their stars traded either, but it’s worked for them. If you continue to put a winning product on the field, that’s what matters and fans will continue to fill the park.

I created the thread on here I believe 3 years ago to trade Knebel coming off his huge season when the relief pitching market was hot. We didn’t capitalize on it and those are the types of moves we need to make. The value on the relief pitcher market seems to have diminished quite a bit since that time, but someone like Hader should still bring back quite the haul.


But it’s apples and oranges. The Rays have a talent laden system where they can trade players as they get expensive because they already have players in house to step in.

Milwaukee by contrast doesn’t have MLB ready talent to step in. The cupboards are bare when it comes to elite talent and/or mlb ready talent


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: March 13, 2021, 10:35 PM Post
Posts: 924
Jopal78! said:
RollieTime said:
To be a perennial contender, it will involve trading players from the roster that are making an impact at the MLB level. The best way to do that will be to trade players that you have replacements for already in the upper minors. The issue for us is that we have little to no position players to do that with since the majority of our roster is free agent signings and/or replacement level players. Pitching is where we would need to deal from and I would say we are more than capable of replacing Hader with Williams coming on last season, Peralta looking like he has finally clicked, and other guys like Rasmussen and Suter making a big impact.

The Rays have continuously traded their pitchers over the years and keep churning out more through their acquisitions in trades and it is a model we need to do ourselves to remain competitive year after year. Will fans hate who we trade away? Some will because they don’t fully understand it. Rays fans might not like seeing their stars traded either, but it’s worked for them. If you continue to put a winning product on the field, that’s what matters and fans will continue to fill the park.

I created the thread on here I believe 3 years ago to trade Knebel coming off his huge season when the relief pitching market was hot. We didn’t capitalize on it and those are the types of moves we need to make. The value on the relief pitcher market seems to have diminished quite a bit since that time, but someone like Hader should still bring back quite the haul.


But it’s apples and oranges. The Rays have a talent laden system where they can trade players as they get expensive because they already have players in house to step in.
Milwaukee by contrast doesn’t have MLB ready talent to step in. The cupboards are bare when it comes to elite talent and/or mlb ready talent


The Rays and the Brewers have been very similar for the last 10 years. From 2011-2020 the Rays have a winning % of 52% and made the playoffs 4 times. Since 2011 the Brewers winning % is 51% and they also have made the playoffs 4 times. How they go about things differs, but the results are about the same.


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: March 14, 2021, 8:55 AM Post
User avatar
Posts: 12548
The Rays have been in the World Series twice in the last 12 years. The Brewers zero.

"I'm sick of runnin' from these wimps!" Ajax - The WARRIORS


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: March 14, 2021, 9:34 AM Post
User avatar
Global Moderator
Posts: 10653
turborickey said:
The Rays have been in the World Series twice in the last 12 years. The Brewers zero.


And yet, the same amount of championships.


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: March 14, 2021, 10:19 AM Post
Posts: 924
turborickey said:
The Rays have been in the World Series twice in the last 12 years. The Brewers zero.


And the Rays lost to the same team that eliminated the Brewers in 2020. Very similar.


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: March 14, 2021, 10:32 AM Post
User avatar
Posts: 12548
I knew it would be justified in some way, but the Rays being in the world series twice in that time shoots down any ideas that we are equal to the Rays.

I mean, we hang our hat on a world series appearance back in 1982, a time when probably half or more of the poster son this site were not even born. That is once in 40 years! The Rays have done it twice in 12.

The fact that the Rays have been there twice in 12 years, regardless of winning it, tells me they are doing something a little better than we are.

"I'm sick of runnin' from these wimps!" Ajax - The WARRIORS


 Top
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Go to page Previous  1 ... 95, 96, 97, 98, 99  Next  [ 1977 posts ]  New Topic   Add Reply
  


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Brew4U and 3 guests

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search this forum (phpBB search):
Jump to:  
Search entire board (Google search):
Google
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Test