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Hader trade ideas

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Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: January 09, 2020, 2:10 PM Post
Posts: 24
With Stearns saying yesterday that trades would be the most likely roster upgrade I wonder if Atlanta is the one targeting Hader. And they are just waiting on the Donaldson decision. Cause if he goes to Atlanta they have a few 3b options to give up and a boat load of young pitching prospects. They line up pretty well with our needs.


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Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: January 09, 2020, 2:17 PM Post
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baumer16 said:
With Stearns saying yesterday that trades would be the most likely roster upgrade I wonder if Atlanta is the one targeting Hader. And they are just waiting on the Donaldson decision. Cause if he goes to Atlanta they have a few 3b options to give up and a boat load of young pitching prospects. They line up pretty well with our needs.


I agree and I think the Twins line up pretty well too. If either team gets Donaldson both would have some 3B that I hope Stearns would be interested in.


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Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: January 09, 2020, 2:27 PM Post
Posts: 70
To be clear, in those scenarios Miguel Sano and Austin Riley/Camargo are the potential 3B targets, correct? Obviously there would be more included with prospects, but are those the major league ready talents we’re thinking of?


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Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: January 09, 2020, 2:29 PM Post
Posts: 24
Well I think I read if the Twins sign Donaldson Sano would move to 1st


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Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: January 09, 2020, 2:31 PM Post
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Yes, Riley from Atlanta and Sano/Arraez from the Twins plus additional prospects.


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Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: January 10, 2020, 1:47 AM Post
Posts: 2807
A Swing and A Drive said:
Why use the best reliever in baseball with 4 years of team control just to fill a single position player "hole" during the offseason?

Plenty of viable options to address 3B without trading Josh Hader IMO.


Because we are a fan base laments our bad luck by asking "why we don't deserve good things."
Then spends 2 months discussing how we can trade away our good things.


Frankly I'm stunned we haven't seen more:
Trade Yelich while he still has value.
Trade Woodruff because he's not acey enough and we got to get an ace.
Trade Hiura for magic beans.

Some people hate success.

Our record in games where Hader has pitched in the last 2 years.
48-7
51-10
5-3 in the playoffs despite 11 innings and a 1.64 ERA. 7.2 innings of ZERO runs vs the Dodgers in a series. His 1st runs allowed being against Washington.
99-17... we'll just replace him. We need a 3b afterall and after trading him we'll just need a bullpen.

2019 Brewers had the 5th most BP innings. 17th best ERA at 4.39. Hader by himself dropped that ERA by 0.22


Last edited by TJseven7 on January 10, 2020, 2:07 AM, edited 1 time in total.

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Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: January 10, 2020, 2:05 AM Post
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Posts: 2327
TJseven7 said:
A Swing and A Drive said:
Why use the best reliever in baseball with 4 years of team control just to fill a single position player "hole" during the offseason?

Plenty of viable options to address 3B without trading Josh Hader IMO.


Because we are a fan base laments our bad luck by asking "why we don't deserve good things."
Then spends 2 months discussing how we can trade away our good things.


Frankly I'm stunned we haven't seen more:
Trade Yelich while he still has value.
Trade Woodruff because he's not acey enough and we got to get an ace.
Trade Hiura for magic beans.

Some people hate success.

Our record in games where Hader has pitched in the last 2 years.
48-7
51-10
5-3 in the playoffs despite 11 innings and a 1.64 ERA. 7.2 innings of ZERO runs vs the Dodgers in a series. His 1st runs allowed being against Washington.
99-17... we'll just replace him. We need a 3b afterall and after trading him we'll just need a bullpen.


If we trade Hader it won't be about making the 2020 team better. It'll be about making the 2021-8 teams a lot better while trying to stay competitive in 2020. Those other guys you mentioned are pretty much sure things and building block type guys who it doesn't make sense to trade and stay competitive. Hader is a flashy reliever who might garner a huge return from the right partner, and might flame out (expensively) if we keep him.


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Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: January 10, 2020, 2:15 AM Post
Posts: 2807
Oxy said:
TJseven7 said:
A Swing and A Drive said:
Why use the best reliever in baseball with 4 years of team control just to fill a single position player "hole" during the offseason?

Plenty of viable options to address 3B without trading Josh Hader IMO.


Because we are a fan base laments our bad luck by asking "why we don't deserve good things."
Then spends 2 months discussing how we can trade away our good things.


Frankly I'm stunned we haven't seen more:
Trade Yelich while he still has value.
Trade Woodruff because he's not acey enough and we got to get an ace.
Trade Hiura for magic beans.

Some people hate success.

Our record in games where Hader has pitched in the last 2 years.
48-7
51-10
5-3 in the playoffs despite 11 innings and a 1.64 ERA. 7.2 innings of ZERO runs vs the Dodgers in a series. His 1st runs allowed being against Washington.
99-17... we'll just replace him. We need a 3b afterall and after trading him we'll just need a bullpen.


If we trade Hader it won't be about making the 2020 team better. It'll be about making the 2021-8 teams a lot better while trying to stay competitive in 2020.


You got Yelich who is a once in a generation piece. Maybe longer when you factor in his cost controlled deal. MKE can't buy guys like this on the FA market. You made that deal knowing you had 5 bullets. Why would you waste 1?

They have no issues filling in the connecting pieces. DS seems to be able to create a 75-82 win team out of thin air. You need stars to win a title and the day Yelich hits FA those chances take a missive hit. Trading Hader won't change that and it hurts your 2020 shot a great deal. You got to take your 5 shots. As I said, I'd rather scorch earth the farm than deal anything away from the ML team that has a big impact.

I don't know why people do not seem to get the opportunity this team has with Yelich Woodruff Hader and Hiura. That doesn't mean you blow the cap to bits and over extend but you certainly don't break it up. The window of opportunity is open. You don't play a part in closing it. You do what you can with in reason to open it further. You capitalize on it. Trading Hader is trying to go in two different directions at the same time. That fails.

Trading Davies for Lauer is future building and this is fine because Davies is a connecting piece.
Trading for Narvaez is intermediate building and what was given up is very distant.

You don't future build with your stars. You trade them when you are rebuilding. If you aren't in, you should be out. Playing the middle keeps the lows up and the highs down. There's no point in that.

I hate to make the reference but I actually have been asked to teach guys in dynasty football leagues. It's not the MLB but it is strategy based. The most stunning thing that I commonly have to teach people is that after you've done the hard work of adding in the horses you need to get there that the best thing to do is actually FINISH the job. It drives me nuts. You don't trade out the horses, you make use of them an actually go win. If you don't you'll build and build and build and sit in no mans land and if you are good you'll go to the playoffs 5 out of 6 years and you'll never WIN. If you suck you'll go to the playoffs 2-3 times in 6 years and you'll still never win. I feel that same "beat my head against the wall" urge when I see this thread.

Opportunity is there. Take it. It's real simple. Take it. Don't get cute and try to take 1 step back in the hopes it'll take you 2 steps forward down the road. Don't chase the birds in the bush. It's very likely that when you deal the stud, you'll get back players who never add up to the impact of the stud. Dealing stud players only makes sense when you can't win before they become expensive. With MKE, opportunity is there right now. Just take it.


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Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: January 10, 2020, 4:54 PM Post
Posts: 24
Disagree. All stars don’t carry equal weight. Hader is a RP Star. That doesn’t carry nearly the weight a star OF would. I think we can agree on that. So just saying you don’t trade stars cause you want to win, well that just depends. Lot of variables with that. Hader pitched 75 innings last year, granted they were important innings, but trading him for an 150 game young middle of the lineup hitter and a middle of the rotation starter who pitches 150-175 innings brings much more value than Hader will give you. And could even possibly open up your window
even more


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Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: January 10, 2020, 6:16 PM Post
Posts: 4975
baumer16 said:
Disagree. All stars don’t carry equal weight. Hader is a RP Star. That doesn’t carry nearly the weight a star OF would. I think we can agree on that. So just saying you don’t trade stars cause you want to win, well that just depends. Lot of variables with that. Hader pitched 75 innings last year, granted they were important innings, but trading him for an 150 game young middle of the lineup hitter and a middle of the rotation starter who pitches 150-175 innings brings much more value than Hader will give you. And could even possibly open up your window
even more


This.

It's about improving the run differential in the aggregate among all 26 players on the roster.

For instance, trading Josh Hader for Jeff McNeil and J.D. Davis would have done exactly that. A McNeil-Urias-Hiura-Davis infield stacks up very well to Moustakas-Arcia-Hiura-Thames - and McNeil and Davis would be coming from a pretty pitcher-friendly park. Furthermore, that infield is cheap and has five years of control.

With that sort of offensive improvement - it more than makes up. Maybe the game isn't close enough to require Hader.


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Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: January 10, 2020, 6:25 PM Post
Posts: 2807
baumer16 said:
Disagree. All stars don’t carry equal weight. Hader is a RP Star. That doesn’t carry nearly the weight a star OF would. I think we can agree on that. So just saying you don’t trade stars cause you want to win, well that just depends. Lot of variables with that. Hader pitched 75 innings last year, granted they were important innings, but trading him for an 150 game young middle of the lineup hitter and a middle of the rotation starter who pitches 150-175 innings brings much more value than Hader will give you. And could even possibly open up your window
even more


Respectfully, no. Hader is as important as it gets. Whatever his trade value is approximated at, MKE would be worse off dealing him 1 for 1 for an equal trade value OF 3b SS etc. All those bats of equal trade value would have less impact than Hader. Any SP who has equal trade value to Hader pitches in lower leverage situations and would have less impact.

It's a question of value and worth. His worth far exceeds his value and you only deal him if you aren't planning to win. Guys who can pull down the team ERA are insanely valuable. It's what makes Cole get 300+ mil. He covers a lot of sins and as MKE has shown 4.0 ERA guys are easy to find. Its the guys who drag that ERA down from 4 that make or break your team.

As I pointed out. Hader alone dropped the pen ERA by 0.22. That's covering a lot of sins and you don't fix that with a bat because a bat can't end a game whenever an advantage is in place.

"It's about improving the run differential in the aggregate among all 26 players on the roster."
You will not make up that difference and impact. It's not as easy as you are making it out to be. It's much easier to manufacture above league average totals at a position than you believe. The gains you assume your gaining aren't as significant as you dream up. The loss of Hader would be dramatic. It would turn wins into loses. There's absolutely no way to manufacture that and the rules of the league made it even harder to do.


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Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: January 10, 2020, 6:44 PM Post
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Posts: 1202
Location: Baltimore, MD
TJseven7 said:
baumer16 said:
Disagree. All stars don’t carry equal weight. Hader is a RP Star. That doesn’t carry nearly the weight a star OF would. I think we can agree on that. So just saying you don’t trade stars cause you want to win, well that just depends. Lot of variables with that. Hader pitched 75 innings last year, granted they were important innings, but trading him for an 150 game young middle of the lineup hitter and a middle of the rotation starter who pitches 150-175 innings brings much more value than Hader will give you. And could even possibly open up your window
even more


Respectfully, no. Hader is as important as it gets. Whatever his trade value is approximated at, MKE would be worse off dealing him 1 for 1 for an equal trade value OF 3b SS etc. All those bats of equal trade value would have less impact than Hader. Any SP who has equal trade value to Hader pitches in lower leverage situations and would have less impact.

It's a question of value and worth. His worth far exceeds his value and you only deal him if you aren't planning to win. Guys who can pull down the team ERA are insanely valuable. It's what makes Cole get 300+ mil. He covers a lot of sins and as MKE has shown 4.0 ERA guys are easy to find. Its the guys who drag that ERA down from 4 that make or break your team.

As I pointed out. Hader alone dropped the pen ERA by 0.22. That's covering a lot of sins and you don't fix that with a bat because a bat can't end a game whenever an advantage is in place.

"It's about improving the run differential in the aggregate among all 26 players on the roster."
You will not make up that difference and impact. It's not as easy as you are making it out to be. It's much easier to manufacture above league average totals at a position than you believe. The gains you assume your gaining aren't as significant as you dream up. The loss of Hader would be dramatic. It would turn wins into loses. There's absolutely no way to manufacture that and the rules of the league made it even harder to do.

If we can find a GM that values Hader to the extent that you do, we should trade him to that guy immediately.


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Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: January 10, 2020, 7:46 PM Post
Posts: 2807
MrAllen said:
If we can find a GM that values Hader to the extent that you do, we should trade him to that guy immediately.


It's always dangerous to trade with the smart ones. I'd tread carefully. [laughing]


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Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: January 10, 2020, 8:16 PM Post
Posts: 24
MrAllen said:
TJseven7 said:
baumer16 said:
Disagree. All stars don’t carry equal weight. Hader is a RP Star. That doesn’t carry nearly the weight a star OF would. I think we can agree on that. So just saying you don’t trade stars cause you want to win, well that just depends. Lot of variables with that. Hader pitched 75 innings last year, granted they were important innings, but trading him for an 150 game young middle of the lineup hitter and a middle of the rotation starter who pitches 150-175 innings brings much more value than Hader will give you. And could even possibly open up your window
even more


Respectfully, no. Hader is as important as it gets. Whatever his trade value is approximated at, MKE would be worse off dealing him 1 for 1 for an equal trade value OF 3b SS etc. All those bats of equal trade value would have less impact than Hader. Any SP who has equal trade value to Hader pitches in lower leverage situations and would have less impact.

It's a question of value and worth. His worth far exceeds his value and you only deal him if you aren't planning to win. Guys who can pull down the team ERA are insanely valuable. It's what makes Cole get 300+ mil. He covers a lot of sins and as MKE has shown 4.0 ERA guys are easy to find. Its the guys who drag that ERA down from 4 that make or break your team.

As I pointed out. Hader alone dropped the pen ERA by 0.22. That's covering a lot of sins and you don't fix that with a bat because a bat can't end a game whenever an advantage is in place.

"It's about improving the run differential in the aggregate among all 26 players on the roster."
You will not make up that difference and impact. It's not as easy as you are making it out to be. It's much easier to manufacture above league average totals at a position than you believe. The gains you assume your gaining aren't as significant as you dream up. The loss of Hader would be dramatic. It would turn wins into loses. There's absolutely no way to manufacture that and the rules of the league made it even harder to do.

If we can find a GM that values Hader to the extent that you do, we should trade him to that guy immediately.



Again completely disagree.

That's covering a lot of sins and you don't fix that with a bat because a bat can't end a game whenever an advantage is in place

So by that logic Hader is more valuable then say Mike Trout, Mookie Betts cause he can end a game and they can't? Thats absolutely ridiculous.

Let me ask you this, I would assume we both agree that Stearns is a really smart guy correct? Well why do you think he's willing to trade Hader and not say Yelich or Hiura? Why are we hearing all these rumors about Hader when if we really want to score a massive deal we would get more for either of those other two. Cause they're not available. Cause everyday stars are far more valuable than a reliever who pitches one pitch 95% of the time and averages less than 1 inning every other day. Like I said all stars are not created equal. And this one for one probably isn't happening cause from what's being said Stearns wants a haul. Unless it was for someone like Cory Seagar who I don't know how long he's under contract for but even he would make us better if we had him over Hader.


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Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: January 10, 2020, 8:44 PM Post
Posts: 2807
baumer16 said:
Again completely disagree.

That's covering a lot of sins and you don't fix that with a bat because a bat can't end a game whenever an advantage is in place

So by that logic Hader is more valuable then say Mike Trout, Mookie Betts cause he can end a game and they can't? Thats absolutely ridiculous.

Let me ask you this, I would assume we both agree that Stearns is a really smart guy correct? Well why do you think he's willing to trade Hader and not say Yelich or Hiura? Why are we hearing all these rumors about Hader when if we really want to score a massive deal we would get more for either of those other two. Cause they're not available. Cause everyday stars are far more valuable than a reliever who pitches one pitch 95% of the time and averages less than 1 inning every other day. Like I said all stars are not created equal. And this one for one probably isn't happening cause from what's being said Stearns wants a haul. Unless it was for someone like Cory Seagar who I don't know how long he's under contract for but even he would make us better if we had him over Hader.


First off Trout is locked in until 38 at 35-36 million dollars a year. He's THE player but the value there is pretty well paid for in full. I mean what do you think his worth is 40 mil per, 50 mil per? You have to put his value pretty high to make him a valuable contract. Hader's underpaid and looking to a guy in years 35-38 is murky so negative value could swing back on the gains Trout makes in the present. Hader doesn't get there. Betts is also in that same territory so I don't see those as good examples.

If you are asking if Trout make a bigger impact than Hader. Yes, significantly. He's the best player in baseball. (He's better than Yelich but I certainly wouldn't trade Yelich for Trout due to their contract value.) I'm saying that any player who is considered equal trade value to Hader on the field will not make the same impact as Hader. I'm saying that the SP prospect you get for Hader is going to effect the team era less than Hader and in a lower leverage position.

Trade value for Hader will not match his worth or impact. If you get fair, you lose the deal. If you get a significant gain in value you'll likely still lose the deal. You need something bordering on stupid for the price to be worth considering.

I believe the DS is willing to trade Hader rumors are cannon fodder. I don't think he's even considering it. I think we got a heck of a player and the media of other teams want him so they are making garbage up. Oh the Brewers are poor they can't afford his arby increasing, better be the lowly team that you are and sell him off to a real contender. That garbage. DS kicks every tire and turns over every stone. He's not dealing Hader, but he's smart enough to listen to people talk because the more they talk the more information they give up.

Basically, we got the hot GF and everyone's looking. They might talk, they might try, it ain't happening. People talk, trolls troll, reporters chase and rumors about nothing pop up. He's tied to Yelich Hiura and Woodruff.

"Cause everyday stars are far more valuable than a reliever who pitches one pitch 95% of the time and averages less than 1 inning every other day."
Now I get it. You expect him to fail. Ok.

As for Cory Seager 2 years Arby 2 and 3. Pass.


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Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: January 10, 2020, 9:10 PM Post
Posts: 3919
MrTPlush said:
Can't imagine why the Brewers would have any interest in Arenado. We would have to essentially pay free agent money for him (which we likely can't afford) and he isn't even a career .800 OPS away from Coors. I am sure he would still be great away from Coors and into Miller Park, but $35mil worthy? Paying him in his mid 30s? Giving up Hader worthy?


I would hope we would not hesitate on bringing in one of the Top 5/Top 10 Third Basemen of All-Time due to cost.

The David Stearns era: Controllable Young Talent. Watch the Jedi work his magic!


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Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: January 10, 2020, 10:13 PM Post
Posts: 2807
3and2Fastball said:
MrTPlush said:
Can't imagine why the Brewers would have any interest in Arenado. We would have to essentially pay free agent money for him (which we likely can't afford) and he isn't even a career .800 OPS away from Coors. I am sure he would still be great away from Coors and into Miller Park, but $35mil worthy? Paying him in his mid 30s? Giving up Hader worthy?


I would hope we would not hesitate on bringing in one of the Top 5/Top 10 Third Basemen of All-Time due to cost.


So names matter more than value you to?

I mean I don't think Donaldson is the right path but I'd rather pay him 120/4 and keep the value than trade the value for Arenado. He's likely a negative value contract over the life of his deal.


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Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: January 10, 2020, 10:25 PM Post
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Posts: 1014
Could use any...and I mean any..insider nuggets right about now calming the storm inside me that there is indeed a significant move in our near future that will make this years squad legit.


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Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: January 11, 2020, 3:22 AM Post
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brewtank34 said:
Could use any...and I mean any..insider nuggets right about now calming the storm inside me that there is indeed a significant move in our near future that will make this years squad legit.


I don’t think one is coming. The team has been assembled for depth and will be competitive, at a lower payroll than last year. Competitive, but most likely not championship caliber unless everyone exceeds expectations somehow. Will keep fans in the seats, but likely not enough to win it all. I’m hoping that the payroll savings is to sign Yelich to an extension, but I’m not holding my breath.


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Offline  Re: Hader trade ideas
Posted: January 11, 2020, 2:33 PM Post
Posts: 24
TJseven7 said:
baumer16 said:
Again completely disagree.

That's covering a lot of sins and you don't fix that with a bat because a bat can't end a game whenever an advantage is in place

So by that logic Hader is more valuable then say Mike Trout, Mookie Betts cause he can end a game and they can't? Thats absolutely ridiculous.

Let me ask you this, I would assume we both agree that Stearns is a really smart guy correct? Well why do you think he's willing to trade Hader and not say Yelich or Hiura? Why are we hearing all these rumors about Hader when if we really want to score a massive deal we would get more for either of those other two. Cause they're not available. Cause everyday stars are far more valuable than a reliever who pitches one pitch 95% of the time and averages less than 1 inning every other day. Like I said all stars are not created equal. And this one for one probably isn't happening cause from what's being said Stearns wants a haul. Unless it was for someone like Cory Seagar who I don't know how long he's under contract for but even he would make us better if we had him over Hader.


First off Trout is locked in until 38 at 35-36 million dollars a year. He's THE player but the value there is pretty well paid for in full. I mean what do you think his worth is 40 mil per, 50 mil per? You have to put his value pretty high to make him a valuable contract. Hader's underpaid and looking to a guy in years 35-38 is murky so negative value could swing back on the gains Trout makes in the present. Hader doesn't get there. Betts is also in that same territory so I don't see those as good examples.

If you are asking if Trout make a bigger impact than Hader. Yes, significantly. He's the best player in baseball. (He's better than Yelich but I certainly wouldn't trade Yelich for Trout due to their contract value.) I'm saying that any player who is considered equal trade value to Hader on the field will not make the same impact as Hader. I'm saying that the SP prospect you get for Hader is going to effect the team era less than Hader and in a lower leverage position.

Trade value for Hader will not match his worth or impact. If you get fair, you lose the deal. If you get a significant gain in value you'll likely still lose the deal. You need something bordering on stupid for the price to be worth considering.

I believe the DS is willing to trade Hader rumors are cannon fodder. I don't think he's even considering it. I think we got a heck of a player and the media of other teams want him so they are making garbage up. Oh the Brewers are poor they can't afford his arby increasing, better be the lowly team that you are and sell him off to a real contender. That garbage. DS kicks every tire and turns over every stone. He's not dealing Hader, but he's smart enough to listen to people talk because the more they talk the more information they give up.

Basically, we got the hot GF and everyone's looking. They might talk, they might try, it ain't happening. People talk, trolls troll, reporters chase and rumors about nothing pop up. He's tied to Yelich Hiura and Woodruff.

"Cause everyday stars are far more valuable than a reliever who pitches one pitch 95% of the time and averages less than 1 inning every other day."
Now I get it. You expect him to fail. Ok.

As for Cory Seager 2 years Arby 2 and 3. Pass.


I don’t expect him to fail. But with a position that is historically as volatile as RP you better damn sure believe the Brewers have thought about it. So along with that, and just the overall value of a RP is probably why Stearns has floated the idea of trading him to upgrade other positions. And it’s not just a media made up frenzy. Cause if the media really wanted to make something up to get attention they can just have Heyman tweet,”Brewers willing to trade Yelich.” And just watch the baseball media world explode on twitter and various sites. I would imagine this site would have a 6 page thread on it within an hour.

And saying that no matter who you trade Hader for it won’t match Haders value is so completely ridiculous it’s not worth responding to.


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