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Wilmer Flores

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Offline  Wilmer Flores
#1

Posted: December 07, 2019, 11:54 PM Post
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Posts: 3627
Why does this guy get no respect? Am I missing something? He hasn't been abnormally injury prone but no team has let him accrue more than 500 PA since the Mets in 2015 (was that he year he was a Brewer for 10 minutes during a game?), and the lowly Diamondbacks just declined a modest $6 million option.

And yet, how is he not almost the same as Mike Moustakas?

Solid defense all over the diamond, though primarily 1B/3B/2B in recent years:

Flores career at 1B: +2.3 UZR/150
Flores career at 2B: -3.2 UZR/150
Flores career at 3B: -2.4 UZR/150

Moustakas career at 3B: +2.2 UZR/150

Despite a slow start to his career (2013-2015), he has been a solid hitter for years now and is coming off an even better season than Moose:

Flores stats, 2016-2019: 1411 PA, .333 wOBA, 110 wRC+, .278/.325/.462/.787
Flores stats, 2017-2019: 1076 PA, .333 wOBA, 109 wRC+, .282/.326/.460/.786
Flores stats, 2019: 285 PA, .358 wOBA, 120 wRC+, .317/.361/.487/.848

Moustakas stats, 2016-2019: 1930 PA, .340 wOBA, 110 wRC+, .258/.318/.498/.816
Moustakas stats, 2017-2019: 1817 PA, .340 wOBA, 110 wRC+, .259/.319/.498/.817
Moustakas stats, 2019: 584 PA, .348 wOBA, 113 wRC+, .254/.329/.516/.845

Even more so than Moustakas, he does not need to be platooned:

Flores vs LHP, 2017-2019: 367 PA, .332 wOBA, 108 wRC+, .284/.316/.482/.799
Flores vs RHP, 2017-2019: 709 PA, .333 wOBA, 109 wRC+, .281/.331/.448/.780

Moustakas vs LHP, 2017-2019: 536 PA, .331 wOBA, 104 wRC+, .268/.313/.472/.785
Moustakas vs RHP, 2017-2019: 1281 PA, .344 wOBA, 113 wRC+, .255/.322/.509/.831

The projections systems think he will outhit Moose next year (and keep in mind Moustakas is older and on the decline):

Steamer projection for Flores: .341 wOBA, 111 wRC+, .285/.335/.479/.814

Steamer projection for Moustakas: .340 wOBA, 106 wRC+, .254/.329/.516/.845

He's a former top prospect (peaking at #47 on Baseball America's 2009 list), hence being one of the near-centerpieces of a Carlos Gomez trade along with then-risky Zack Wheeler. And he's still only 28 years old!!! Why is this guy not a starter and why shouldn't he be the Brewers starting 3B in 2020? He should be very cheap and almost the same as Moose, trading a bit of power for a bit of on-base skills.

Am I missing something?


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Offline  Re: Wilmer Flores
#2

Posted: December 08, 2019, 12:07 AM Post
Posts: 582
I’m surprised Arizona didn’t pick up his option. I wanted Howie Kendrick , but Flores is similar to him. I’d sign him and Brock holt to split 3B as well as provide versatility. Assuming more money is spent on a big OF bat and pitching


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Offline  Re: Wilmer Flores
#3

Posted: December 08, 2019, 12:18 AM Post
Posts: 1069
He’s a sub .800 ops guy which is a red flag at 3b. He doesn’t have enough pop. 2019 was the only year he cleared .800 but the sample size was low.


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Offline  Re: Wilmer Flores
#4

Posted: December 08, 2019, 12:26 AM Post
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Posts: 3627
Austin Tatious said:
He’s a sub .800 ops guy which is a red flag at 3b. He doesn’t have enough pop. 2019 was the only year he cleared .800 but the sample size was low.


Why the arbitrary .800 threshold, which Moustakas has barely cleared throughout his career? Park adjusted they have almost been the same hitter for a substantial sample now, that's just a fact.

Of course, I'm not saying Moustakas is not a more attractive player given his durability, HR pop, and slightly better defensive metrics, but Moustakas just got a massive contract. I'm talking about realistic options for the Brewers to fill one of several holes they have, and Wilmer Flores seems like a solid 2.0+ WAR player if given a full-time job there.

Devinep said:
I’m surprised Arizona didn’t pick up his option. I wanted Howie Kendrick , but Flores is similar to him. I’d sign him and Brock holt to split 3B as well as provide versatility. Assuming more money is spent on a big OF bat and pitching


They could cobble together a better roster with a number of value-oriented signings rather than one big position player. Say, Flores and Holt and a guy who might be undervalued like Corey Dickerson.

C - Narvaez/Pina
1B - Braun/Flores/Holt
2B - Hiura/Urias/Holt/Flores
SS - Urias/Arcia
3B - Flores/Holt
LF - Yelich/Braun
CF - Cain/Taylor
RF - Dickerson/Gamel


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Offline  Re: Wilmer Flores
#5

Posted: December 08, 2019, 2:01 AM Post
Posts: 1163
Location: Washburn, WI
Flores was a guy I mentioned in the offseason plan thread as a guy I would like to see brought in. I think he would be a solid get as an everyday player for first or third and be a nice guy to slot in the 6 or 7 hole in the lineup. He’s one of those guys that could give you the most bang for your buck. I think Flores and Avisaíl Garcia are the two guys this offseason that are mostly under appreciated that will be solid contributors for whoever gives them an opportunity.

If Flores is brought in, I would expect the Brewers to make a push for someone like Keuchel or Ryu at the least with how inexpensively Stearns has been able to fill out the roster with hitters.

Cain
Hiura
Yelich
?
Narvaez
Braun
Flores
Urias
P

The Brewers still lack that 4 hole hitter as the roster is currently constructed. But with the addition of Flores, we are looking at a much more consistent offense this season than what we’ve been accustomed to the last couple years with being a feast or famine offense.


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Offline  Re: Wilmer Flores
#6

Posted: December 08, 2019, 4:13 AM Post
Posts: 236
Great post SRB, for a couple of reasons.

One being that I honestly didn't realize Flores was as decent as he is, I'm with you on that.
Also, I totally agree about Dickerson being someone we should target. I've liked him and thought he was underrated for years. Reminds me of a poor man's Yelich BEFORE he became a superstar.


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Offline  Re: Wilmer Flores
#7

Posted: December 08, 2019, 7:39 AM Post
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Posts: 1279
The thought of becoming a Brewer makes this guy weep like a little girl.

Pass.

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Offline  Re: Wilmer Flores
#8

Posted: December 08, 2019, 8:04 AM Post
Posts: 749
RollieTime said:
Flores was a guy I mentioned in the offseason plan thread as a guy I would like to see brought in. I think he would be a solid get as an everyday player for first or third and be a nice guy to slot in the 6 or 7 hole in the lineup. He’s one of those guys that could give you the most bang for your buck. I think Flores and Avisaíl Garcia are the two guys this offseason that are mostly under appreciated that will be solid contributors for whoever gives them an opportunity.

If Flores is brought in, I would expect the Brewers to make a push for someone like Keuchel or Ryu at the least with how inexpensively Stearns has been able to fill out the roster with hitters.

Cain
Hiura
Yelich
?
Narvaez
Braun
Flores
Urias
P

The Brewers still lack that 4 hole hitter as the roster is currently constructed. But with the addition of Flores, we are looking at a much more consistent offense this season than what we’ve been accustomed to the last couple years with being a feast or famine offense.


You want some power at 1B and 3B. Flores has little pop with the bat and would be a 7-8 type guy. Not the kind you want as a starting 1B ro 3B.


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Offline  Re: Wilmer Flores
#9

Posted: December 08, 2019, 8:08 AM Post
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Posts: 471
A Swing and A Drive said:
The thought of becoming a Brewer makes this guy weep like a little girl.

Pass.

It does me too! Having said that, don't be surprised if he's opening day starter at 1B/3B! [ohwell]


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Offline  Re: Wilmer Flores
#10

Posted: December 08, 2019, 8:10 AM Post
Posts: 2060
Location: Madison, WI
SRB said:
Why does this guy get no respect? Am I missing something? He hasn't been abnormally injury prone but no team has let him accrue more than 500 PA since the Mets in 2015 (was that he year he was a Brewer for 10 minutes during a game?), and the lowly Diamondbacks just declined a modest $6 million option.



Flores has early onset arthritis in both of his knees. From the talk at the end of the 2018 season, it sounds like it is a pretty serious concern already.


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Offline  Re: Wilmer Flores
#11

Posted: December 08, 2019, 8:22 AM Post
Posts: 12310
At first glance, I'm fine on Flores, though I prefer Starlin Castro who's been about as reliable as they come with OPS+ between 93 and 106 over the past 4 seasons, and 73 to 115 over his career. Plus he plays every day. Those aren't All Star numbers but he's reliable piece and he puts the ball in play at a decent rate. He got his first real action at 3B in 2019 and was fine there and has plenty of experience all over the infield. Brewers have a huge hole at 3B and 1B. If they can't get a guy like Rendon, they need to fill those spots as best they can and add the big bat in the OF if they have to while moving Braun to 1B,


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Online  Re: Wilmer Flores
#12

Posted: December 08, 2019, 10:19 AM Post
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Posts: 6901
RWeeksFan23 said:
Great post SRB, for a couple of reasons.

Agreed, while I’ve become familiar with 100’s of players over the past few years, I haven’t spent one second looking closer at Flores ever since he became an internet meme in the Brewers-Mets trade that wasn’t. Appreciate the deeper dive, and looks like an intriguing possibility.


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Offline  Re: Wilmer Flores
#13

Posted: December 08, 2019, 10:27 AM Post
Posts: 834
If his medicals check out, he would be a decent option on a 1 year deal. I would prefer Todd Frazier, but either would work.


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Offline  Re: Wilmer Flores
#14

Posted: December 08, 2019, 11:01 AM Post
Posts: 8199
wntrtxn21 said:
RollieTime said:
Flores was a guy I mentioned in the offseason plan thread as a guy I would like to see brought in. I think he would be a solid get as an everyday player for first or third and be a nice guy to slot in the 6 or 7 hole in the lineup. He’s one of those guys that could give you the most bang for your buck. I think Flores and Avisaíl Garcia are the two guys this offseason that are mostly under appreciated that will be solid contributors for whoever gives them an opportunity.

If Flores is brought in, I would expect the Brewers to make a push for someone like Keuchel or Ryu at the least with how inexpensively Stearns has been able to fill out the roster with hitters.

Cain
Hiura
Yelich
?
Narvaez
Braun
Flores
Urias
P

The Brewers still lack that 4 hole hitter as the roster is currently constructed. But with the addition of Flores, we are looking at a much more consistent offense this season than what we’ve been accustomed to the last couple years with being a feast or famine offense.


You want some power at 1B and 3B. Flores has little pop with the bat and would be a 7-8 type guy. Not the kind you want as a starting 1B ro 3B.


That’s kind of a bold statement. I want productivity at 1b and 3b. OBP is more important than power. Teams have been successful with non-power players at the corners. We just need to seek productivity.


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Offline  Re: Wilmer Flores
#15

Posted: December 08, 2019, 2:54 PM Post
Posts: 1105
I hadn't realised he had done so well, so yeah it is a bit surprising to see that option declined.

Trying to make sense of it though, one could argue that while UZR is mostly neutral on him, DRS and FRAA are a lot more negative. So the Dbacks might not have valued his defense. On the offensive side, the improvement in offensive output comes with a career-high BABIP. I think he should still be viewed more as the league-average bat his 101 wRC+ suggests he is. With the ability to play slightly below average defense at multiple positions, that makes him a good bench option, or one of those "Ben Zobrist/Marwin Gonzalez" type roles as a regular but without a set position. But I think there's a reason he's not treated as a starter.

There are a few needs; 3B, 1B and pitching (Mainly starting). If the remaining money and surplus prospects are spent mostly on the other needs, I think Flores would work well to complement that as the 3B and general infield strengthening signing. But I'd want the other bat(s) brought in to be better than that.


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Offline  Re: Wilmer Flores
#16

Posted: December 08, 2019, 5:22 PM Post
Posts: 1163
Location: Washburn, WI
wntrtxn21 said:
RollieTime said:
Flores was a guy I mentioned in the offseason plan thread as a guy I would like to see brought in. I think he would be a solid get as an everyday player for first or third and be a nice guy to slot in the 6 or 7 hole in the lineup. He’s one of those guys that could give you the most bang for your buck. I think Flores and Avisaíl Garcia are the two guys this offseason that are mostly under appreciated that will be solid contributors for whoever gives them an opportunity.

If Flores is brought in, I would expect the Brewers to make a push for someone like Keuchel or Ryu at the least with how inexpensively Stearns has been able to fill out the roster with hitters.

Cain
Hiura
Yelich
?
Narvaez
Braun
Flores
Urias
P

The Brewers still lack that 4 hole hitter as the roster is currently constructed. But with the addition of Flores, we are looking at a much more consistent offense this season than what we’ve been accustomed to the last couple years with being a feast or famine offense.


You want some power at 1B and 3B. Flores has little pop with the bat and would be a 7-8 type guy. Not the kind you want as a starting 1B ro 3B.


I think the Brewers have some decent pop up and down the lineup. He would be a fine option as the everyday first or third baseman if the other spot was covered by one of the remaining big free agent bats or someone like Thames. Hiura, Yelich, and Thames could hit 30+ each, with guys like Narvaez, Flores, and Braun chipping in around 20 each. Not every guy needs to hit 30+ homers. I would rather have a bunch of Flores type guys that hit .275 and hit 15-20 homers than a bunch of .240 hitters like we’ve had recently (Thames, Grandal, Moose to an extent, but not quite the same category). Constructing a lineup to hit 230 home runs with a bunch of low average guys will lead to a lot of games where you hit 3-4 home runs, but then stretches of scoring 12 runs in a week like we’ve been accustomed to the last few years.

I do still hold out hope for someone like Rendon or possibly Donaldson, but if you add Thames back to this team and pair him with Flores:

CF Cain
RF Yelich
2B Hiura
1B Thames
C Narvaez
3B Flores
LF Braun
SS Urias
P

That’s a very solid lineup. I would still like to see the Brewers do something for a 4 hole hitter though. They just lack that additional big bat in the lineup. I do prefer Yelich in the 3 hole and believe that someone like Hiura would be fine protecting him, but then it would make sense to put someone like Thames in the leadoff spot since he walks a lot and dropping Cain down to second.


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Offline  Re: Wilmer Flores
#17

Posted: December 08, 2019, 6:27 PM Post
Posts: 749
RollieTime said:
wntrtxn21 said:
RollieTime said:
Flores was a guy I mentioned in the offseason plan thread as a guy I would like to see brought in. I think he would be a solid get as an everyday player for first or third and be a nice guy to slot in the 6 or 7 hole in the lineup. He’s one of those guys that could give you the most bang for your buck. I think Flores and Avisaíl Garcia are the two guys this offseason that are mostly under appreciated that will be solid contributors for whoever gives them an opportunity.

If Flores is brought in, I would expect the Brewers to make a push for someone like Keuchel or Ryu at the least with how inexpensively Stearns has been able to fill out the roster with hitters.

Cain
Hiura
Yelich
?
Narvaez
Braun
Flores
Urias
P

The Brewers still lack that 4 hole hitter as the roster is currently constructed. But with the addition of Flores, we are looking at a much more consistent offense this season than what we’ve been accustomed to the last couple years with being a feast or famine offense.


You want some power at 1B and 3B. Flores has little pop with the bat and would be a 7-8 type guy. Not the kind you want as a starting 1B ro 3B.


I think the Brewers have some decent pop up and down the lineup. He would be a fine option as the everyday first or third baseman if the other spot was covered by one of the remaining big free agent bats or someone like Thames. Hiura, Yelich, and Thames could hit 30+ each, with guys like Narvaez, Flores, and Braun chipping in around 20 each. Not every guy needs to hit 30+ homers. I would rather have a bunch of Flores type guys that hit .275 and hit 15-20 homers than a bunch of .240 hitters like we’ve had recently (Thames, Grandal, Moose to an extent, but not quite the same category). Constructing a lineup to hit 230 home runs with a bunch of low average guys will lead to a lot of games where you hit 3-4 home runs, but then stretches of scoring 12 runs in a week like we’ve been accustomed to the last few years.

I do still hold out hope for someone like Rendon or possibly Donaldson, but if you add Thames back to this team and pair him with Flores:

CF Cain
RF Yelich
2B Hiura
1B Thames
C Narvaez
3B Flores
LF Braun
SS Urias
P

That’s a very solid lineup. I would still like to see the Brewers do something for a 4 hole hitter though. They just lack that additional big bat in the lineup. I do prefer Yelich in the 3 hole and believe that someone like Hiura would be fine protecting him, but then it would make sense to put someone like Thames in the leadoff spot since he walks a lot and dropping Cain down to second.


Why would you want Thames? You said you would rather have a Flores type than a Thames, Moose, or Grandal. I would much rather have a Moustakas (exact same career OBP as Flores .310) who hits HRs and drives in runs at 3B than a Flores. I would much, much rather have an Asdrubal Cabrera over Flores any time.


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Offline  Re: Wilmer Flores
#18

Posted: December 08, 2019, 7:42 PM Post
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Posts: 3627
wntrtxn21 said:
Why would you want Thames? You said you would rather have a Flores type than a Thames, Moose, or Grandal. I would much rather have a Moustakas (exact same career OBP as Flores .310) who hits HRs and drives in runs at 3B than a Flores. I would much, much rather have an Asdrubal Cabrera over Flores any time.


I think Cabrera is underrated as well and wanted him at the trade deadline last season (before he put up huge numbers for the Nationals...), but he is 34 and might cost more than Flores. I'd be happy with Cabrera on a one-year deal to man 3B though.

For what it's worth, Flores is not devoid of power, over a full season he has been on roughly a 23 HR pace. 2017-2019 splits:

Wilmer Flores - 1411 PA, .333 wOBA, 110 wRC+, .278/.325/.462/.787, 23 HR per 600 PA
Asdrubal Cabrera - 1646 PA, .334 wOBA, 107 wRC+, .267/.336/.445/.781, 20 HR per 600 PA
Eric Thames - 1288 PA, .355 wOBA, 118 wRC+, .241/.343/.504/.848, 34 HR per 600 PA
Mike Moustakas - 1930 PA, .340 wOBA, 110 wRC+, .258/.318/.498/.816, 34 HR per 600 PA

If you will only be satisfied by a starting 3B who is going to hit 30+ HR, you may be sorely disappointed next season. Thames and Moustakas are better hitters, but Thames is a 1B who needs to be platooned, and Moustakas just signed a $64 million contract.


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Offline  Re: Wilmer Flores
#19

Posted: December 08, 2019, 7:46 PM Post
Posts: 2030
I know he's not a great option, and I would much rather have Rendon or Donaldson, but would anyone be interested in Maikel Franco??


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Offline  Re: Wilmer Flores
#20

Posted: December 08, 2019, 8:01 PM Post
Posts: 1163
Location: Washburn, WI
wntrtxn21 said:

Why would you want Thames? You said you would rather have a Flores type than a Thames, Moose, or Grandal. I would much rather have a Moustakas (exact same career OBP as Flores .310) who hits HRs and drives in runs at 3B than a Flores. I would much, much rather have an Asdrubal Cabrera over Flores any time.


Maybe I didn’t clarify well enough. I said I don’t want a bunch of guys like Grandal, Moose to a point because of his low average, and Thames. I do not want Flores over Moose. Don’t twist my words. I said if you have a bunch of guys like them all together in one single lineup, it’s going to be an inconsistent offense. Bringing Moose back and getting better hitters in the other spots is fine with me. But that’s not possible now. I mentioned holding out hope for someone better like Rendon or Donaldson. But if we miss out on them, falling back on Thames even though I’m not a big fan of his is better than someone like Cron or Bird in my opinion. But Thames isn’t a cleanup hitter and the Brewers lack a cleanup hitter currently. That’s why I said Thames is fine, but not ideal.

I wanted Moose back and wish we got him back. I did say he’s not quite in the same category as Thames and Grandal with the low batting average/lots of homeruns profile, but to a point is kind of similar. But when a large portion of your lineup hits under .250, you’re not going to have a good consistent offense. Which is exactly what I was trying to say. A bunch of 30 homerun hitters that hit .240 aren’t going to make for a consistent offense.

Cain was hitting .250 before the last week of the season, Thames hit .247, Grandal at .246, Moose at .254, Arcia at .223. My entire point is guys like Flores that hit .275 and hit 15-20 homeruns will, in my own personal opinion, lead to a much more consistent offense than having over half of your everyday lineup hitting under .250.

We’ve been complaining about it a lot the last couple years about the inconsistent offense. Players that have the profile of lots of strikeouts, low batting averages, and lots of home runs will lead to those feast or famine offenses of hitting 18 home runs in a week and then only scoring 12 runs the next week.

Add more high batting average, low strikeout guys to mix in with Braun, Yelich, Cain, and Hiura, and this offense will be very good. Flores is a good option. Asdrubal Cabrera is also a good option. There are plenty worse options out there.


Last edited by RollieTime on December 08, 2019, 8:07 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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