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Is this offseason time to trade Hader?

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Online  Re: Is this offseason time to trade Hader?
#61

Posted: October 14, 2021, 12:28 PM Post
Posts: 26753
Honestly pretty ridiculous if Hader begrudges the organization to that great of an extent for it.

It's how arbitration works, you got what you were entitled to under the terms of your CBA, get over it.

If (and I'm saying IF) he refuses to go multiple innings solely on those grounds he is quite bluntly a very petty and bitter individual.


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Offline  Re: Is this offseason time to trade Hader?
#62

Posted: October 14, 2021, 12:35 PM Post
Posts: 5862
Location: Madison, WI
Yea I'd generally agree on the arby thing that he shouldn't blame them for the rules. But, it could be combined with how any contract extensions negotiations are going and if we're being shrewd on it, thus essentially forcing him into one year deals. Again, tough to blame MKE for the horrible economic setup of MLB that just doesn't allow them to give him a healthy contract right now. Then add in that it was reported we were listening to offers on him. So I could see how there could be tensions.

I think I mentioned it in a game thread. But I saw him on a quick on field talk on MLB network during the day of game 3 and they asked him about going more than 1 inning and he shut it down with no hesitation. Seemed pretty adamant to me. Didn't even throw out a normal nice guy thing like 'barring a situation where it's a must and my team needs me'. Came off pretty cold/blunt to me.


Last edited by tmwiese55 on October 14, 2021, 1:23 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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Offline  Re: Is this offseason time to trade Hader?
#63

Posted: October 14, 2021, 12:37 PM Post
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The Brewers have done a great job pulling bullpen arms seemingly out of thin air. Many of the key relievers down the stretch weren't on the radar, or even on the team at all, a year ago. Still, I think that strategy benefits from having a couple of proven anchor guys at the back end, and there aren't a lot of blue chip hard throwers in the high minors right now aside from Ashby. They might have enough starter depth to use some of them (Small, for one) in the 'pen of course, which I can't believe I'm actually saying about the Brewers. (Remember when we were so strapped for pitchers that they called Zimmermann back from his fishing camp? All those years ago...)

At the same time I have to wonder sometimes whether moving on from Hader might also let the team be more flexible in using the best reliever in the 8th inning or whatever, based on matchups and game situations.

I think Stearns has expressed the philosophy that closers are best traded in season to maximize value, and I more than half expect him to hold Hader until a deadline deal 2022 or '23 and get something crazy for him. The salary is of course a growing issue and a lot will depend on how much budget they decide they have.


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Offline  Re: Is this offseason time to trade Hader?
#64

Posted: October 14, 2021, 12:41 PM Post
Posts: 16230
I mean he had a 1.23 ERA over 58.2 innings. That is like half the ERA and one third of the runs he gave up when they tossed him around like a rag doll in 17-25 more innings.

Notably, Counsell told us five million times he only pitches one inning so he could impact more games. He pitched ONE LESS than he did in 2019 and only five more than he had in 2018. So uhh...that logic didn't really work. Of course we all know why it didn't work out that way. While he was available more often he was only really used in save situations and thus his appearances kind of just ended up similar.

Now if he really is this much better consistently pitching only one inning I think Josh Hader is the smart one in the room at the end of the day. Though, I am not sure it will work out that way in the long run. I can't blame Josh Hader though. He is the baseball equivalent of an NFL RB. Pitching 80 innings a year and he may implode before ever getting a chance to cash in on his unwordly talent he has. It isn't 'his' CBA either...he wasn't in the MLB when the last CBA was signed, I am pretty sure. Even if he was I would be upset myself...it will cost him $5mil+ in the long run I am sure. Seems a bit ridiculous to demand only one inning and saves over it, but I am not the one losing millions each year.


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Offline  Re: Is this offseason time to trade Hader?
#65

Posted: October 14, 2021, 1:19 PM Post
Posts: 366
tmwiese55 said:
Yea I'd generally agree on the arby thing that he shouldn't blame them for the rules. But, it could be combined with how any contract extensions negotiations are going and if we're being shrewd on it, thus essentially forcing him into one year deals. Again, tough to blame MKE for the horrible economic setup of MLB that just doesn't allow them to give him a healthy contract right now. Then add in that it was reported we were listening to offers on him. So I could see how there could be tensions.

I think I mentioned it in a game thread. But I saw him on a quick on field talk on MLB network during the day of game 3 and they asked him about going more than 1 inning and he shut it down with no hesitation. Seemed pretty adamant to me. Didn't even throw out a normal nice guy thing like 'barring a situation where it's a must and my team needs me'. Came of pretty cold/blunt to me.


‪The rumor of Hader being unwilling to both pitch more than 1 inning and being anything other than a strict closer appears to be true. Brewers and Hader relationship appears to be in a rough spot. Massive difference between him and Woody. I’m fine with moving on from him this winter. All of this crap has rubbed me the wrong way.


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Offline  Re: Is this offseason time to trade Hader?
#66

Posted: October 14, 2021, 1:47 PM Post
Posts: 1831
You move him if and only if we receive the type of overwhelming offer that the best closer in baseball should demand. If the offers continue to be underwhelming as they were last offseason we retain a great pitcher.


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Offline  Re: Is this offseason time to trade Hader?
#67

Posted: October 14, 2021, 5:19 PM Post
Posts: 10256
brewers888 said:
You move him if and only if we receive the type of overwhelming offer that the best closer in baseball should demand. If the offers continue to be underwhelming as they were last offseason we retain a great pitcher.


We will see how it plays out but I am doubtful that 10 million for a closer is in the budget for a team with a payroll of 95-110 million and lots of other guys getting big raises in 2022.

I think they move him


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Offline  Re: Is this offseason time to trade Hader?
#68

Posted: October 14, 2021, 5:36 PM Post
Posts: 1136
markedman5 said:
brewers888 said:
You move him if and only if we receive the type of overwhelming offer that the best closer in baseball should demand. If the offers continue to be underwhelming as they were last offseason we retain a great pitcher.


We will see how it plays out but I am doubtful that 10 million for a closer is in the budget for a team with a payroll of 95-110 million and lots of other guys getting big raises in 2022.

I think they move him


FWIW they paid Hoffman $8 mil in 2010, KRod $8 mil in 2008 and Gagne $10 mil in 2008. So $10 mil for Hader wouldn’t be so outlandish for our history. And he is light years better than these 3.


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Offline  Re: Is this offseason time to trade Hader?
#69

Posted: October 14, 2021, 7:31 PM Post
Posts: 10256
ThisIsMyCrew said:
markedman5 said:
brewers888 said:
You move him if and only if we receive the type of overwhelming offer that the best closer in baseball should demand. If the offers continue to be underwhelming as they were last offseason we retain a great pitcher.


We will see how it plays out but I am doubtful that 10 million for a closer is in the budget for a team with a payroll of 95-110 million and lots of other guys getting big raises in 2022.

I think they move him


FWIW they paid Hoffman $8 mil in 2010, KRod $8 mil in 2008 and Gagne $10 mil in 2008. So $10 mil for Hader wouldn’t be so outlandish for our history. And he is light years better than these 3.


I think if they had those decisions to make today they wouldn’t do it…….no doubt Hader is much better…..Much different informational environment now versus then…..and a different GM making the decisions on how to spend the money……..even if the same owner is cutting the checks.

But as I said this is just my opinion on what Stearns/Arnold/MA will do……’we will see in the coming months.


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Offline  Re: Is this offseason time to trade Hader?
#70

Posted: October 15, 2021, 7:59 AM Post
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adambr2 said:
Honestly pretty ridiculous if Hader begrudges the organization to that great of an extent for it.

It's how arbitration works, you got what you were entitled to under the terms of your CBA, get over it.

If (and I'm saying IF) he refuses to go multiple innings solely on those grounds he is quite bluntly a very petty and bitter individual.


Just spitballing here, but is it possible that he may have been upset that they renewed him after 2018 without a real raise? I remember Fielder being mad about that too.

To me, that would make more sense than blaming the team for an arbitration loss, idk.


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Offline  Re: Is this offseason time to trade Hader?
#71

Posted: October 15, 2021, 12:07 PM Post
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A lot of teams dislike taking players to arbitration, because in the meeting they basically have to berate the player and say why he doesn't deserve the extra money. I'm sure there are a lot of players who have had animosity towards their team after arby hearings.


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Offline  Re: Is this offseason time to trade Hader?
#72

Posted: October 15, 2021, 8:11 PM Post
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Trade some top prospects for a huge bat like Jose Ramirez and then trade Hader to replenish some of those traded prospects. I could get on board with that strategy. Although if you trade for somebody like Ramirez, then you are really going for it and could obviously use the best reliever in the game.


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Offline  Re: Is this offseason time to trade Hader?
#73

Posted: October 16, 2021, 7:51 PM Post
Posts: 558
I'm definitely up for trading Hader. I just don't care for a player that knowing the bullpen is depleted, no Suter, no Williams, elimination game, and he still refuses to go more than 1 inning.

Seattle loves to deal and doesn't have a regular closer. How about Hader for Ty France? I would prefer to not trade Hader for prospects but for somebody with at least some track record. Teoscar Hernandez would be another guy but I think he has only one year of control remaining.


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Offline  Re: Is this offseason time to trade Hader?
#74

Posted: October 17, 2021, 7:35 AM Post
Posts: 1049
Simba2020 said:
I'm definitely up for trading Hader. I just don't care for a player that knowing the bullpen is depleted, no Suter, no Williams, elimination game, and he still refuses to go more than 1 inning.

Seattle loves to deal and doesn't have a regular closer. How about Hader for Ty France? I would prefer to not trade Hader for prospects but for somebody with at least some track record. Teoscar Hernandez would be another guy but I think he has only one year of control remaining.


I don't believe the Mariners would trade France for Hader. They traded Nola and Adams to the Padres to get France and Trammell, so I think it would take more than a LRP for them to move France, especially now because Seager is going to be history.


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Offline  Re: Is this offseason time to trade Hader?
#75

Posted: October 17, 2021, 10:39 AM Post
Posts: 402
Hader to the Dodgers for Graterol and Lux.


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Online  Re: Is this offseason time to trade Hader?
#76

Posted: October 17, 2021, 11:17 AM Post
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ThisIsMyCrew said:
markedman5 said:
brewers888 said:
You move him if and only if we receive the type of overwhelming offer that the best closer in baseball should demand. If the offers continue to be underwhelming as they were last offseason we retain a great pitcher.


We will see how it plays out but I am doubtful that 10 million for a closer is in the budget for a team with a payroll of 95-110 million and lots of other guys getting big raises in 2022.

I think they move him


FWIW they paid Hoffman $8 mil in 2010, KRod $8 mil in 2008 and Gagne $10 mil in 2008. So $10 mil for Hader wouldn’t be so outlandish for our history. And he is light years better than these 3.



Hader had one blown save this year. Normally I feel like the difference between a good/really good closer and an elite closer isn't all that big of a deal, having Hader basically be "automatic" was pretty huge. Will he be the same going forward? Nobody can say that for sure, but I'd say if you think, even THINK he's that automatic 97% plus guy, he's worth that 10 million or so for another season.


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Offline  Re: Is this offseason time to trade Hader?
#77

Posted: October 17, 2021, 8:19 PM Post
Posts: 2248
ThisIsMyCrew said:
Lots of question marks for the bullpen this coming year.
Strickland, Suter, Box played a large role this year and are free agents. We are assuming Williams heals fine and is dominate again. I’m cautious with that seeing what happened to Yelich. Different injury and position yes, but throwing hand none the less.

Hader really is the only one you know what you’ll get out of. Rest of the pen could be league min guys that balance out his larger salary.

I think it was Plush who said it. But you don’t trade Hader if you’re serious about contending. He’s an elite closer. And any return for him will be underwhelming for his value to the team.


The fact they don't spend for bats in FA shows they aren't serious about contending. What they are serious about it seems is "hoping" all the breaks go their way when/if they do make the playoffs. If they are truly serious about contending, extend the payroll by a big margin until the stud arms become FA's and after that they can strip the payroll down to nothing. If it gets you a world series it's worth it, it's the best way to do it because using "hope" as their strategy like they have been will continually get them nowhere.


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Online  Re: Is this offseason time to trade Hader?
#78

Posted: October 17, 2021, 8:33 PM Post
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Brewcrewin07 said:
ThisIsMyCrew said:
Lots of question marks for the bullpen this coming year.
Strickland, Suter, Box played a large role this year and are free agents. We are assuming Williams heals fine and is dominate again. I’m cautious with that seeing what happened to Yelich. Different injury and position yes, but throwing hand none the less.

Hader really is the only one you know what you’ll get out of. Rest of the pen could be league min guys that balance out his larger salary.

I think it was Plush who said it. But you don’t trade Hader if you’re serious about contending. He’s an elite closer. And any return for him will be underwhelming for his value to the team.


The fact they don't spend for bats in FA shows they aren't serious about contending. What they are serious about it seems is "hoping" all the breaks go their way when/if they do make the playoffs. If they are truly serious about contending, extend the payroll by a big margin until the stud arms become FA's and after that they can strip the payroll down to nothing. If it gets you a world series it's worth it, it's the best way to do it because using "hope" as their strategy like they have been will continually get them nowhere.



Again, this is false. They spent 200+ million on Christian Yelich. Just because he was "already theirs" and you don't personally count that as spending, doesn't mean it doesn't count. Just because he sucks now also doesn't mean it doesn't count. Spending 200+ million on a guy that was, at the time, a premier, top 5 talent is absolutely serious. Just because you don't personally count it because it doesn't meet your very specific, oddly defined criteria, doesn't mean the team isn't serious about contending.


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Offline  Re: Is this offseason time to trade Hader?
#79

Posted: October 17, 2021, 8:57 PM Post
Posts: 2248
I think it was Plush who said it. But you don’t trade Hader if you’re serious about contending. He’s an elite closer. And any return for him will be underwhelming for his value to the team.[/quote]

The fact they don't spend for bats in FA shows they aren't serious about contending. What they are serious about it seems is "hoping" all the breaks go their way when/if they do make the playoffs. If they are truly serious about contending, extend the payroll by a big margin until the stud arms become FA's and after that they can strip the payroll down to nothing. If it gets you a world series it's worth it, it's the best way to do it because using "hope" as their strategy like they have been will continually get them nowhere.[/quote]


Again, this is false. They spent 200+ million on Christian Yelich. Just because he was "already theirs" and you don't personally count that as spending, doesn't mean it doesn't count. Just because he sucks now also doesn't mean it doesn't count. Spending 200+ million on a guy that was, at the time, a premier, top 5 talent is absolutely serious. Just because you don't personally count it because it doesn't meet your very specific, oddly defined criteria, doesn't mean the team isn't serious about contending.[/quote]

You keep bringing this up it seems so you can "beat your chest" that you're right. In a sense you are...but you are PURPOSELY ignoring the whole gist of my posts on this when you KNOW damn well what I'm talking about. Yes they spend $200 million on Yelich...good for them. But the whole point is...we aren't talking TOTAL contracts, it's about YEARLY payroll, and you know this. Now if their YEARLY payroll was $200 million, you'd be spot on. And NO I don't expect them to ever have a payroll that high. Love how you repeatedly cite the "total" amount of his contract like it's the yearly total. Spend 20+ mill on a couple other bats and see what happens. Wanna bet Yelich's contract it would make a HUGE difference?? C'mon bet me..I DARE you. Now you'll say "they can't afford that" I will call total and 100% BS. Add $40 million to the payroll(2 $20 mill bats/avg) payroll is about what $135-$140 million?? And that would be WITH JBJ opting not to decline his option and also Avi NOT declining his option. Wanna tell me again, how it "can't" happen?? Keep beating that drum.


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Offline  Re: Is this offseason time to trade Hader?
#80

Posted: October 17, 2021, 9:02 PM Post
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7th most wins in MLB & thee most wins in the NLC over the last half decade & that's without even being serious about contending? Pretty impressive.

Makes me feel even worse for teams like the Blue Jays (Springer), Twins (Donaldson), Angels (Rendon), Phillies (Harper, JTR), Cubs (Heyward), Reds (Castellanos, Moose), and Padres (Hosmer, Machado) who are out here being all serious about contending, spending on FA bats & still can't win more games than us.

Not sure if the Mets count as trying or not since they traded for Lindor then signed him for 341 million before reaching FA, so I left them off the list.


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