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Trading a pitcher

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Offline  Trading a pitcher
#1

Posted: October 13, 2021, 8:37 AM Post
Posts: 915
With so many of our guys facing pretty substantial raises this winter in arbitration, is it possible that this might be the time to trade one of our big pitchers? Could this be the winter where we see Woody or Hader being dealt (or maybe even both)? I'm not saying that I'm advocating for it, but I just wonder if the right offer came along, if Stearns and Co. wouldn't consider making a move.

With that in mind, what teams might be desperate this winter to pick up pitching? One team I keep coming back to is the Blue Jays. They have such a good nucleus of young offensive players, but I'm guessing that they could probably use another high-level SP. Would they be in the market for a Brandon Woodruff? Which team would ultimately say "no" to a Nate Pearson/Jordan Groshans package for Woody? Too much for the Jays to give up for a couple of years of a top-end SP, or too little for the Brewers to get back for that?

Or, how about we go "big" and package Woody/Hader together for: Pearson, Groshans, Moreno and Otto Lopez?

Granted, I don't know a ton about any of these prospects, so maybe some of you might know more about these guys - and suggest that we stay away from them? But, just looking for teams that are going to be in that "desperate" mode this winter to find good, young pitching.

And again - I would hate to see us trade away Woody and Hader, but I also know that we might need to get a little creative this winter with a lot of these guys getting more expensive through arby.


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Offline  Re: Trading a pitcher
#2

Posted: October 13, 2021, 8:41 AM Post
Posts: 1514
Woodruff brings back an all-star bat otherwise you don't trade him. He is elite and controlled.


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Offline  Re: Trading a pitcher
#3

Posted: October 13, 2021, 9:02 AM Post
Posts: 16230
You would need a three team trade and then flip the prospects for a PROVEN bat. Trading for prospects would be ill-advised due to risk and the fact they may not hit for years.


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Offline  Re: Trading a pitcher
#4

Posted: October 13, 2021, 9:03 AM Post
Posts: 915
I hear what you are saying, but is there a contending team that is going to give up an AS bat in return for a SP? Seems like a situation where you'd be improving one part of your MLB team, but severely weakening another?


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Offline  Re: Trading a pitcher
#5

Posted: October 13, 2021, 9:06 AM Post
Posts: 839
I think Josh Hader will be dealt. After losing his most recent arbitration case, I think something serious went on behind the scenes, with the team ultimately agreeing to let him maximize saves (thereby improving his arbitration negotiating position) and everyone pretending to be happy.

But I doubt this will be repeated next year. Some team should sign him to a massive, multi-year contract, then use him in a fireman role which maximizes value for the team.


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Offline  Re: Trading a pitcher
#6

Posted: October 13, 2021, 9:16 AM Post
Posts: 915
I agree on Hader. It's obviously been well known that we've had some trade discussions the past year or so on him, but nothing ever came to fruition. He did nothing but help his value this past season (his lackluster playoff performance aside), so I've got to think that something is going to happen this winter. But, the big question - is there another team willing to pay Stearns's asking price for Hader?


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Offline  Re: Trading a pitcher
#7

Posted: October 13, 2021, 9:24 AM Post
Posts: 12888
madtownhawk said:
I hear what you are saying, but is there a contending team that is going to give up an AS bat in return for a SP? Seems like a situation where you'd be improving one part of your MLB team, but severely weakening another?


In my dreams, I'd deal Woodruff to Toronto for Teoscar Hernandez. You'd likely have to include Taylor in that deal.


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Offline  Re: Trading a pitcher
#8

Posted: October 13, 2021, 9:28 AM Post
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Posts: 1625
is there a contending team that is going to give up an AS bat in return for a SP?

I feel like there's a poster on some other team web site saying the exact opposite...why would the Brewers, as a contending team, give up a AS starter for a bat?

Any trade with our big 3 starters or Hader is going to be a big deal, and the Brewers have to feel like their window is open now in a way that it may not be for quite some time, so the return will be an astronomical haul of prospect value that can be repackaged per MrTPlush and/or players who can be immediate first-division starters at the major league level. It might honestly be hard to get commensurate value back in, say, a Burnes or Woodruff deal for that reason. Look for established starters who play the same positions as big time prospects (like Adames) or available free agents, I guess...so a team would, say, sign Castellanos after he opts out and then trade their OF stud to us.


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Online  Re: Trading a pitcher
#9

Posted: October 13, 2021, 9:55 AM Post
Posts: 231
Location: Johnstown, PA
How about :

Woodruff
Hiura
Hader
Jbj

To the Angels


Jared Walsh
Jo Adell
Maybe another player or two

To the Brewers


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Offline  Re: Trading a pitcher
#10

Posted: October 13, 2021, 10:06 AM Post
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Posts: 7186
Location: Phoenix, AZ
gebc1997 said:
How about :

Woodruff
Hiura
Hader
Jbj

To the Angels


Jared Walsh
Jo Adell
Maybe another player or two

To the Brewers


Angels would accept that really quick but not sure how this helps the Brewers. Would need a lot more just for Woodruff alone. JBJ may have negative value but not that much negative value where he would be basically cancelling out Hader the same with Hiura. Hiura is basically a neutral value as he is still pre-arb. In order for this deal to work the Angels would have to add in a lot more like Marsh, Detmers and Sandoval more.


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Online  Re: Trading a pitcher
#11

Posted: October 13, 2021, 10:07 AM Post
Posts: 231
Location: Johnstown, PA
nate82 said:
gebc1997 said:
How about :

Woodruff
Hiura
Hader
Jbj

To the Angels


Jared Walsh
Jo Adell
Maybe another player or two

To the Brewers


Angels would accept that really quick but not sure how this helps the Brewers. Would need a lot more just for Woodruff alone. JBJ may have negative value but not that much negative value where he would be basically cancelling out Hader the same with Hiura. Hiura is basically a neutral value as he is still pre-arb. In order for this deal to work the Angels would have to add in a lot more like Marsh, Detmers and Sandoval more.


Well, that would be their other player or two


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Offline  Re: Trading a pitcher
#12

Posted: October 13, 2021, 10:09 AM Post
Posts: 186
I hear what madtown is saying as far as anyone trading one of their regulars. In Groshans you are getting a guys who is ready to make the move to the majors. But he hasn't done that. Same could be said for Moreno though I'm not sure we would trade for a catcher. Orelvis Martinez is a very interesting prospect to me but he is further away from the big leagues. But, and this has been said before, this is how the Rays run their team. Woodruff and Burnes have 3 years of control and are worth a LOT right now. Hate to lose them but the value they bring back would be a lot. Oh to be a GM in the MLB.


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Offline  Re: Trading a pitcher
#13

Posted: October 13, 2021, 10:11 AM Post
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Posts: 1596
Location: Chicago
JohnBriggs12 said:
madtownhawk said:
I hear what you are saying, but is there a contending team that is going to give up an AS bat in return for a SP? Seems like a situation where you'd be improving one part of your MLB team, but severely weakening another?


In my dreams, I'd deal Woodruff to Toronto for Teoscar Hernandez. You'd likely have to include Taylor in that deal.


Good thing we're fans and not actually GMs. Brandon Woodruff is a starting pitcher, inherently more valuable than a corner outfielder. Woodruff also has more team control remaining team than Teoscar Hernandez. And at least according to baseball reference Woodruff was a 5.7 WAR player in 2021 and Hernandez was a 4.0 WAR player.

If the Brewers traded a starting pitcher it would more than likely be one of the younger ones in the vein of Ashby than their established horses.

After developing about 4 quality starting pitchers between 1992 and 2017, I would hope they wouldn't immediately submarine their depth trading for bats. Rather they would be better off looking for the value singings like this past winter's Kyle Schwarber ($10 million), Brad Miller (3.5 million) etc.


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Online  Re: Trading a pitcher
#14

Posted: October 13, 2021, 10:13 AM Post
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Posts: 13482
I'd like to go on record and say that I would not trade any of our big 3, and I'd even add Ashby and Small to that group...

"I'm sick of runnin' from these wimps!" Ajax - The WARRIORS


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Offline  Re: Trading a pitcher
#15

Posted: October 13, 2021, 10:20 AM Post
Posts: 1834
turborickey said:
I'd like to go on record and say that I would not trade any of our big 3, and I'd even add Ashby and Small to that group...


For the first time in this teams history we have championship level starting pitching and I am not willing to give that away unless we are getting a sure fire offensive stud on the level of a Vlad Jr or Wander Franco which is certainly not happening.

Hader on the other hand may very well go but only if we are receiving very high value. Stearns has to realize that we had the weakest lineup by far of any postseason team and I expect him to acquire a top hitter but it won't be at the expense of one of our top 3 starters.


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Offline  Re: Trading a pitcher
#16

Posted: October 13, 2021, 11:14 AM Post
Posts: 2290
I am willing to trade anyone. But to trade a starter/Hader, we need to get back a proven hitter with years of cheap(er) control. And it is hard to be proven and have years of control (see Hiura).

And that player has to play a position we could maximize the upgrade at. So we aren't going to want to replace Wong or Adames.

With that many qualifications, it will be hard to find a trading partner.


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Offline  Re: Trading a pitcher
#17

Posted: October 13, 2021, 11:27 AM Post
Posts: 1220
Hader is expendable, IMO. He's a TREMENDOUS weapon, but also the exact type/time you want to get rid of before a down year.

Would a deal with San Diego that included a guy like Jake Cronenworth and some minor league arms make sense? Want to improve the O right now with a trade of Hader.


Last edited by PlayerHader on October 13, 2021, 11:44 AM, edited 1 time in total.

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Offline  Re: Trading a pitcher
#18

Posted: October 13, 2021, 11:43 AM Post
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Posts: 7186
Location: Phoenix, AZ
PlayerHader said:
Hader is expendable, IMO. He's a TREMENDOUS weapon, but also the exact type you want to get rid of before a bad year.

Would a deal with San Diego that included a guy like Jake Cronenworth and some minor league arms make sense? Want to improve the O with a trade of Hader right now.


I don't think Cronenworth makes sense for the Brewers.

For Hader I think the teams the Brewers are going to target are probably the Mets, Red Sox, Yankees, Phillies and the White Sox. Maybe the Mariners and the Blue Jays try for Hader but I am not 100% sold that would be a move they would make. The Giants are also another team that could show some interest but I don't like anything from the Giants.


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Offline  Re: Trading a pitcher
#19

Posted: October 13, 2021, 11:51 AM Post
Posts: 1220
nate82 said:
PlayerHader said:
Hader is expendable, IMO. He's a TREMENDOUS weapon, but also the exact type you want to get rid of before a bad year.

Would a deal with San Diego that included a guy like Jake Cronenworth and some minor league arms make sense? Want to improve the O with a trade of Hader right now.


I don't think Cronenworth makes sense for the Brewers.

For Hader I think the teams the Brewers are going to target are probably the Mets, Red Sox, Yankees, Phillies and the White Sox. Maybe the Mariners and the Blue Jays try for Hader but I am not 100% sold that would be a move they would make. The Giants are also another team that could show some interest but I don't like anything from the Giants.


Curious what names in particular from that list of teams (Mets, Sox x2, Yanks, Phils) catch your eye. Phillies were a team I thought about, but I wasn't sure which pre-arb/arb bats they had that made sense.


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Offline  Re: Trading a pitcher
#20

Posted: October 13, 2021, 12:03 PM Post
Posts: 836
I would not be trading any of them. Pitching is the most difficult thing to get right for teams and we have elite, young, cheap pitchers. That was our strength this year and it will be our strength for the next few years. I understand the need for improving the offense but you don't want to weaken what made you a force this year. Stearns reportedly made a "big time offer" for Bryan Reynolds so I think he will make a push for an impact bat in the offseason but I doubt it will be from our ML pitching staff. Maybe you can deal a Houser or Small but I wouldnt be getting rid of Woody, Burnes, Peralta, Lauer or Ashby.

If there is a year to dig into the FA market for a bat, this is it. Class is loaded with talent and I think if you can get some 2/3/4 year deals and backload it a bit after Cain and JBJ are off the books after this year you might have something.


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