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NCAA one and done rule

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Offline  Re: NCAA one and done rule
#61

Posted: March 27, 2017, 4:24 PM Post
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paul253 said:
What a racket the NCAA has devised, yet some want to rip on the players being scammed


Explain to me how the players are "being scammed". They know exactly what they are getting into and they all go in more than willingly. As I've said time and time again if they don't like it they can walk away any time they want. But ask anyone here, hell ask yourself. If you could go to college, a college you probably couldn't afford to go to or qualify to get into, for four years and earn your degree while paying nothing for tuition, nothing for housing, nothing for your food plans, nothing for healthcare, nothing for books AND receive a monthly stipend of a few hundreds dollars in exchange for playing on the football or basketball team.....would you? I sure as hell would. Stop acting like these players aren't getting anything in return for their time and effort.

Since you continue to keep misrepresenting what i've said, there probably is no point debating further with you.

Never once have i said college athletes get nothing. Instead i've stated multiple times that a scholarship definitely has financial value, just nowhere close to the financial gains which universities and the NCAA makes off the money these athletes generate.

They hide behind this bogus claim of major college football and basketball being amateur athletics so they can get away with just paying out a scholarship when in reality the two sports are multi-billion dollar businesses with packed stadiums/arenas, huge TV contracts, large merchandising deals, and numerous other revenue streams not much different at all than the NFL and NBA, except those two leagues have to actually share their money with the product/athletes bringing in that revenue.

So just because college athletes in those sports get something for playing doesn't have to also mean they are getting their fare share. After all, if what they get is perfectly fair, why is the NCAA so against letting the athletes unionize and bargain for compensation?


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Offline  Re: NCAA one and done rule
#62

Posted: March 27, 2017, 4:45 PM Post
Posts: 3874
After all, if what they get is perfectly fair, why is the NCAA so against letting the athletes unionize and bargain for compensation


Becuase they are students, not employees. It's the same reason high school players aren't being paid even though more and more of them are bringing money and attention to their schools. I know the absolute last thing anyone cares about is schools, but these are still schools. And they are still students.

Do you think they should even have to go to class or should they just be able to play their sports and collect a paycheck? If they are going to be paid "fair value", to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars a year, why would even care about going to school? Talk about a scam.

They hide behind this bogus claim of major college football and basketball being amateur athletics


How is this a "claim"? They ARE amateurs. The only people trying to change that are the players themselves who are demanding they be paid for playing the game. They are the ones trying to change their status to make them, by definition, professionals.

The real issue, though, is the lack of minor leagues for the NBA and NFL. These kids should not be paid while in college, but they should have another route to go if they so choose. But the NFL and NBA have no incentive to form these leagues becuase the NCAA is basically doing it for them.


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Offline  Re: NCAA one and done rule
#63

Posted: March 27, 2017, 7:35 PM Post
Posts: 6413
Location: Kenosha, WI
paul253 said:
Becuase they are students, not employees.


Students can be employees at schools...they also get paid. There is something called change and maybe it is time for that. Athletics have boomed into massive businesses yet they get the same compensation as before? Hmmm


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Offline  Re: NCAA one and done rule
#64

Posted: March 27, 2017, 8:39 PM Post
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paul253 said:
So your attitude to someone trying to change the status quo in college athletics is, "Don't try to change anything, you signed up for this, plus you get to be famous in Madison."


No my attitude is you know what you signed up for so stopping acting like you're some poor unsuspecting victim. I mean serioulsly, walking around with these "broke athlete" signs? I'm so sorry that he gets a four year degree without paying a dime AND gets a monthly stipend on top of that just for being an athlete. Please, allow me to throw some money his way.

Perhaps someone should send him a bill showing him what he would have paid for college if he wasn't good at basketball.

And perhaps he should have gone to Turkey or Greece to play professionally three years ago if playing NCAA basketball is causing him to go broke.


You're assuming a 4 year degree is really that valuable. Its value drops everyday as everyone and their mother gets one from the hundreds of online diploma mills.


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Offline  Re: NCAA one and done rule
#65

Posted: March 27, 2017, 9:18 PM Post
Posts: 6413
Location: Kenosha, WI
jerichoholicninja said:
paul253 said:
So your attitude to someone trying to change the status quo in college athletics is, "Don't try to change anything, you signed up for this, plus you get to be famous in Madison."


No my attitude is you know what you signed up for so stopping acting like you're some poor unsuspecting victim. I mean serioulsly, walking around with these "broke athlete" signs? I'm so sorry that he gets a four year degree without paying a dime AND gets a monthly stipend on top of that just for being an athlete. Please, allow me to throw some money his way.

Perhaps someone should send him a bill showing him what he would have paid for college if he wasn't good at basketball.

And perhaps he should have gone to Turkey or Greece to play professionally three years ago if playing NCAA basketball is causing him to go broke.


You're assuming a 4 year degree is really that valuable. Its value drops everyday as everyone and their mother gets one from the hundreds of online diploma mills.


Fake degrees don't devalue a real one.


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Offline  Re: NCAA one and done rule
#66

Posted: March 28, 2017, 9:01 AM Post
Posts: 3874
Students can be employees at schools...they also get paid.


Yes.....when they hold a job. Playing basketball isn't a job. It's an activity. It's a playing a game. It's something tens of millions of people do around the country for fun.

Where did this whole debate come from? It came about because of money. Because men's basketball and football and maybe a few other sports at a few schools (women's basketball, hockey, baseball) are money makers. But let's face it. This is about men's basketball and football. Those athletes feel as though they are being mistreated. Forget for a second that if they stayed four years they receive benefits that can top $200,000 depending on where they go. Apparently that no longer matters. So are we arguing that ALL student athletes are employees, and they all deserve to be paid? Or only the student athletes in sports that make a profit? Is life harder for a football player at Alabama than it is for a women's soccer player at Alabama? The football player deserves to get paid but the soccer player doesn't? Or they both deserve to get paid? So now you're not only running a deficit in almost every sport but you're increasing that deficit by paying athletes who participate in those sports?

The problem with the whole "pay them their fair market value" is that you're only going to end up paying players from certain sports, which quite honestly is crap, because athletes in other sports work just as hard as basketball and football players, maybe even harder. But if you do it the other way, you're paying athletes in sports that, quite honestly, very few people care about. No offense to all the swimmers and field hockey players out there but those sports just don't draw the same amount of viewers as football and they don't bring in huge amounts of revenue.

Then there's the argument that schools like Texas and Ohio St and Alabama have much more valuable football programs than schools like SMU and UMass or Iowa St. So do players from Ohio St get paid more then players from Iowa St? How is Iowa St ever supposed to compete if Ohio Sts players (let's stop calling them students) get paid more?

I'm sorry but this isn't MLB free agency where these kids can go off to the highest bidder.. They can do that when they make it to be pros. This is college. They can play for the scholarships and exposure and all the other perks that come with it. And.....you know.....education.

You're assuming a 4 year degree is really that valuable. Its value drops everyday as everyone and their mother gets one from the hundreds of online diploma mills.


It's more valuable than a high school or associates degree, which is what many of these kids would top off with without the athletic scholarship. And even if they'd still have gotten a four year degree they'd likely have thousands dollars of student loan debt to go with it. .


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Offline  Re: NCAA one and done rule
#67

Posted: March 28, 2017, 9:19 AM Post
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I am not one that thinks these players should be receiving "fair" market value for their services to their school. But I am one that believes they should be given some expense money from the NCAA to offset the lost time they have due to having to be at their sport. I would love if they came up with a pay scale for these athletes to receive a bi-weekly allowance as if they were working a job like any other college student. If this was done, I think the issue of being paid might end. While it is a great argument that these kids should just thank the lucky stars that they are getting "free" college, it's just not that simple. The NCAA is making so much profit off of these institutions and these student-athletes are giving up a lot of their own time to make them their money.

“There's a fine line between being confident and cocky, or overconfident. This is an extremely humbling game. But if you don't believe in yourself, no one else is going to believe in you.”


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Offline  Re: NCAA one and done rule
#68

Posted: March 28, 2017, 10:08 AM Post
Posts: 1705
Location: Madison, WI
Brew4U said:
I am not one that thinks these players should be receiving "fair" market value for their services to their school. But I am one that believes they should be given some expense money from the NCAA to offset the lost time they have due to having to be at their sport. I would love if they came up with a pay scale for these athletes to receive a bi-weekly allowance as if they were working a job like any other college student. If this was done, I think the issue of being paid might end. While it is a great argument that these kids should just thank the lucky stars that they are getting "free" college, it's just not that simple. The NCAA is making so much profit off of these institutions and these student-athletes are giving up a lot of their own time to make them their money.


They do already. But yea I'd be fine with an increase to it.

Also, they are being paid market value. This is the best deal they have right now. Anyone is free to step up and pay them more and/or not ban them from their league.


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Offline  Re: NCAA one and done rule
#69

Posted: March 28, 2017, 10:22 AM Post
Posts: 5880
Here's yet another problem with paying student athletes "what they're worth." How do you determine what the backup punter for Western Michigan should earn vs the starting QB at Alabama? Or the bench warmer for Montana vs a star player from Duke? For the matter, WHO would determine this?


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Offline  Re: NCAA one and done rule
#70

Posted: March 28, 2017, 10:48 AM Post
Posts: 3874
Its kinda sad that the NBAs developmental league is such a dud becuase it could really be something good. A ton of these guys who are drafted have no business being in the NBA right now and could benefit from playing in a minor league. And I'm sure you could get more major cities (Kansas City, St Louis, San Francisco, San Jose, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Hartford, etc) to vie for franchises. The NBA could increase their draft to four or five rounds, each franchise gets a minor league team and elimate the rule barring HS kids from being drafted. Minor league teams could be filled in from draftees, free agents and international players. Salaries maybe ranging from $100,000-$250,000.

This is something I think a good, wealthy businessman could start on his own. Six franchises in larger cities hat already have capable arenas. Get a tv deal with ESPN or Fox and court High School players who can't enter the draft yet, international players and college seniors who graduate but
aren't drafted.


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Offline  Re: NCAA one and done rule
#71

Posted: March 28, 2017, 11:05 AM Post
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/sports/wp/2015/11/23/running-up-the-bills/?utm_term=.4af3b0d1ad87

Very lengthy and somewhat old article. However, it has a lot of good charts, graphs, and content.

Let's follow a train of thought: athletes get a scholarship and also get a stipend from the school. What should that stipend be? $200/week? What would that stipend be used for? The 53" TVs I see in many athletes rooms might not be big enough, I guess. Also, keep in mind that for sports like softball, swimming, wrestling, etc., athletes rarely get a 100% full ride. Many times, the program is given a small number of scholarships, 8 for example, that need to be divided up among 20 athletes.

What do athletes at D1 schools receive? (my daughter played softball at a D3 school, and received none of these) Training table (i.e. food), a personal athletic trainer, tutors if necessary, among other things. The daughter of a friend of mine is playing volleyball at the University of Minnesota. She was surprised when each member of the team has their own personal trainer. Yes... a 1-to-1 ratio. She is only receiving a 50% scholarship (IIRC), but is getting a lot of other benefits that I never had access to.

Should those trainers be paid? I doubt they would be. They will most likely graduate with tens of thousands in debt while my friends daughter will most likely have little to no debt.

Players should not be paid a salary above and beyond their scholarship... period.


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Offline  Re: NCAA one and done rule
#72

Posted: March 28, 2017, 11:37 AM Post
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paul253 said:
Yes.....when they hold a job. Playing basketball isn't a job. It's an activity. It's a playing a game. It's something tens of millions of people do around the country for fun.



Tens of millions of people write code for fun. Should college students not get paid for doing that?
Tens of millions of people cook for fun, should college students not get paid for doing that?

The basis of your argument is flawed.

http://college.usatoday.com/2016/10/20/should-athletes-be-paid-to-play/

Athletes work more than most students. The NCAA has a regulation that is intended to limit training for players to 20 hours per week. Would you be surprised to learn that very few athletes reported only practicing 20 hours per week? According to an NCAA survey conducted in 2011, Division I football players averaged 43 hours a week. Baseball came in second with 42.1 hours and men’s basketball came in third with 39.2. These are in-season numbers. This means that on top of class work and homework, athletes are working a full-time job.....

...stipends average between $2,000 and $5,000 annually. How many of us can live off of $2,000 a year? To put this in context, let’s say I work for a company that offers tuition assistance. Let’s say that this company offers to assist my whole tuition for being a full-time employee, but my paycheck every two weeks works out to be $77. Could I live off that? Even as a full-time employee with access to the employee cafeteria? I don’t think many of us could, yet we expect athletes to do so.

"I wasted so much time in my life hating Juventus or A.C. Milan that I should have spent hating the Cardinals." ~kalle8

Twitter: @MKEHiker
Website: http://www.mkehiker.com


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Offline  Re: NCAA one and done rule
#73

Posted: March 28, 2017, 11:57 AM Post
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Posts: 4492
paul253 said:
So your attitude to someone trying to change the status quo in college athletics is, "Don't try to change anything, you signed up for this, plus you get to be famous in Madison."


No my attitude is you know what you signed up for so stopping acting like you're some poor unsuspecting victim. I mean serioulsly, walking around with these "broke athlete" signs? I'm so sorry that he gets a four year degree without paying a dime AND gets a monthly stipend on top of that just for being an athlete. Please, allow me to throw some money his way.

Perhaps someone should send him a bill showing him what he would have paid for college if he wasn't good at basketball.

And perhaps he should have gone to Turkey or Greece to play professionally three years ago if playing NCAA basketball is causing him to go broke.



Stop using Straw Man arguments and discuss the issue, not Nigel Hayes, you're also completely misrepresenting the young man in your haste to establish a false cause argument.

He used that sign to raise awareness. He wasn't complaining, he has used his celebrity as a Badger to attempt to change the status quo and raise THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS for charity. That "Broke athlete" sign you like to harp on was used to (as I pointed out before) raise thousands of dollars for the Madison Boys & Girls club, but apparently that doesn't matter to you. He never once acted like a victim. Never once. Just stated the facts. Period.

I ask you this, how would you have someone who feels that workers, in the future, need to be paid more, go about changing the status quo?

"I wasted so much time in my life hating Juventus or A.C. Milan that I should have spent hating the Cardinals." ~kalle8

Twitter: @MKEHiker
Website: http://www.mkehiker.com


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Offline  Re: NCAA one and done rule
#74

Posted: March 28, 2017, 12:05 PM Post
Posts: 1705
Location: Madison, WI
paul253 said:
Its kinda sad that the NBAs developmental league is such a dud becuase it could really be something good. A ton of these guys who are drafted have no business being in the NBA right now and could benefit from playing in a minor league. And I'm sure you could get more major cities (Kansas City, St Louis, San Francisco, San Jose, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Hartford, etc) to vie for franchises. The NBA could increase their draft to four or five rounds, each franchise gets a minor league team and elimate the rule barring HS kids from being drafted. Minor league teams could be filled in from draftees, free agents and international players. Salaries maybe ranging from $100,000-$250,000.

This is something I think a good, wealthy businessman could start on his own. Six franchises in larger cities hat already have capable arenas. Get a tv deal with ESPN or Fox and court High School players who can't enter the draft yet, international players and college seniors who graduate but
aren't drafted.


I believe the new NBA CBA allows for a couple flex roster spots to bounce back and forth from the D league and the salary is going up to 75K in the D league as opposed to like 25k now. So this is the route the NBA seems to be taking to try and fix this argument along with keeping the best 'next tier' guys in USA easily accessed by the NBA rather than on a contract in Europe. This seems like a good first step to me. I guess I'm not sure if they'll allow HS kids to play a year there and then get drafted though, I mean, if they're going to allow that then why not just let them go to the NBA? Maybe that's the next step though, they want to establish the D league more and get a team affiliated with every NBA team and then they'll allow the rule to be dropped? Maybe IDK.


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Offline  Re: NCAA one and done rule
#75

Posted: March 28, 2017, 12:40 PM Post
Posts: 3874
The basis of your argument is flawed.


It's not. My argument is they are not employees so therefore they shouldn't be paid like they are or be able to organize like they are. I don't see how college basketball is any different than high school basketball in that it's essentially an extracurricular activity. They are students on the basketball team, not employees of the university. The school and the conference making money off the basketball team doesn't change that. And if you argue it does then you'd have to argue athletes on teams that make money are employees and athletes on teams that don't make money aren't, which makes zero sense. This all emotional argument on your behalf. It doesn't make sense. They aren't in any way employees, no matter how much the basketball team makes.

As for Nigel Hayes. As I said, good for him for raising money for charity. But to claim he didn't portray himself as a poor college student with that sign is a joke. He clearly portrayed himself as someone who was being taken advantage of him. He gets credit for making it more than about him, but this was also about him. And while he was able to raise money for charity the goal is not to raise money for charity. The goal is to raise money for college athletes.

I ask you this, how would you have someone who feels that workers, in the future, need to be paid more, go about changing the status quo


It doesn't matter because I don't believe they are workers. As I said they are students on the basketball team, not employees.


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Offline  Re: NCAA one and done rule
#76

Posted: March 28, 2017, 12:56 PM Post
Posts: 1705
Location: Madison, WI
College basketball players essentially sign contracts with the university to play basketball for them, along with the other things that go along with just playing. HS kids do not and their admittance, attendance, and tuition (well besides some shady private schools) is not contingent on them playing ball. Pretty big difference to me.


Last edited by tmwiese55 on March 28, 2017, 1:23 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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Offline  Re: NCAA one and done rule
#77

Posted: March 28, 2017, 1:01 PM Post
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Posts: 6060
Boy, if you don't see the difference between a college athlete and a high school one this debate might as well end.

“There's a fine line between being confident and cocky, or overconfident. This is an extremely humbling game. But if you don't believe in yourself, no one else is going to believe in you.”


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Offline  Re: NCAA one and done rule
#78

Posted: March 28, 2017, 1:42 PM Post
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Posts: 3890
Baldkin said:
paul253 said:
Yes.....when they hold a job. Playing basketball isn't a job. It's an activity. It's a playing a game. It's something tens of millions of people do around the country for fun.



Tens of millions of people write code for fun. Should college students not get paid for doing that?
Tens of millions of people cook for fun, should college students not get paid for doing that?

The basis of your argument is flawed.

http://college.usatoday.com/2016/10/20/should-athletes-be-paid-to-play/

Athletes work more than most students. The NCAA has a regulation that is intended to limit training for players to 20 hours per week. Would you be surprised to learn that very few athletes reported only practicing 20 hours per week? According to an NCAA survey conducted in 2011, Division I football players averaged 43 hours a week. Baseball came in second with 42.1 hours and men’s basketball came in third with 39.2. These are in-season numbers. This means that on top of class work and homework, athletes are working a full-time job.....

...stipends average between $2,000 and $5,000 annually. How many of us can live off of $2,000 a year? To put this in context, let’s say I work for a company that offers tuition assistance. Let’s say that this company offers to assist my whole tuition for being a full-time employee, but my paycheck every two weeks works out to be $77. Could I live off that? Even as a full-time employee with access to the employee cafeteria? I don’t think many of us could, yet we expect athletes to do so.

Yea, to me this comes down to a simple monetary question.

You either believe believe that the college athletes/the actual product in multi-billion dollar businesses only deserve a sliver of the revenues generated, while the coaches, universities, and the NCAA deserve the rest or you feel they deserve a bigger share than that sliver.

The fact that some want to drone on about that they had to pay back hefty student loans and these college athletes don't have to is irrelevant to me. People with an in demand gift or skill are always a higher placed commodity compared to the average person and thus rightly so receive benefits that others don't.


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Offline  Re: NCAA one and done rule
#79

Posted: March 28, 2017, 1:44 PM Post
Posts: 3874
Of course there are differences between high school and college athletes. I was speaking specifically in terms of how playing affects their status. If you are saying signing a contract that gives free tuition and other stuff in exchange for playing basketball makes them an employee of the university then does that mean people on music or academic scholarships are also employees? After all they receive scholarships and other perks which are contingent on certain things, usually grades. How are they different, other than the fact that they don't bring in as much money? And what about students who participate in research that brings in millions of dollars of grants? Are they employees too? Should they be getting paid?

As I said this all comes down to money. You can't legitimately argue these players are employees for no other reason then the fact that the school makes money off of the team they play for. They are not employees. Period.


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Offline  Re: NCAA one and done rule
#80

Posted: March 28, 2017, 2:06 PM Post
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tmwiese55 said:

I believe the new NBA CBA allows for a couple flex roster spots to bounce back and forth from the D league and the salary is going up to 75K in the D league as opposed to like 25k now. So this is the route the NBA seems to be taking to try and fix this argument along with keeping the best 'next tier' guys in USA easily accessed by the NBA rather than on a contract in Europe. This seems like a good first step to me. I guess I'm not sure if they'll allow HS kids to play a year there and then get drafted though, I mean, if they're going to allow that then why not just let them go to the NBA? Maybe that's the next step though, they want to establish the D league more and get a team affiliated with every NBA team and then they'll allow the rule to be dropped? Maybe IDK.

I think things are fine how they are.

The vast majority of college basketball players stay 2-4 years in school. Only a small percentage leave after one year and for those one and done players, i think they benefit from a year in college instead of going directly to the pros from high school. That year in college gives them a chance to play against a higher level of play compared to high school, get coaching, and spend a year living on their own to ease that shift at least somewhat for when they become a pro.

Sure, for fans of college basketball, they'd like to see the best talents play for more than a single season, but it shouldn't be about what fans want. Those high talent kids should be able to go into the draft and see where the NBA views their skillset. At least though college basketball fans do get to see them in that environment for a year vs never seeing them if they could go pro directly from high school.

So I don't see a big reason to change things given the current system is good for everyone involved from the players to college basketball and the NBA.


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