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What's bugging you? [2019]

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Offline  Re: What's bugging you? [2019]
Posted: August 23, 2019, 12:02 AM Post
Posts: 8033
nodakfan17 said:
nate82 said:
I can't wait for fully autonomous driving to be a thing. No more merging etc all will be handled by the car.

Once we have fully autonomous cars traffic should be a thing of the past and commute times should be shorter. The autonomous vehicles should be able to go 100+ mph on the freeways and highways with no issue. This would require 100% autonomous vehicles or close to it.

The biggest downside of this is there would be more people moving to rural areas. The same type of move that happened after WWII.

What’s wrong with moving to the country? The negative environmental externalities? At some point, I think you’ll see the gas tax go up to discourage long commutes.


Not sure of negative environmental externalities. The modern internal combustion engine, when properly maintained, emits almost no pollutants. 95% of all pollution from cars comes from the worst (oldest, poorly maintained, or doctored for performance) 5% of vehicles.

Also the gas tax probably won’t go up (although it should have years ago). We’ll follow Oregon’s experiment and institute a driving fee where we are assessed for our mileage. As electric and hybrid vehicles continue to grow in use, we find that these heavy vehicles contribute to the wear and tear on roads, but pay minimal-to-no road maintenance fees via gas tax. That needs to be fixed by shifting from gas tax to mileage fees.


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Offline  Re: What's bugging you? [2019]
Posted: August 23, 2019, 8:52 AM Post
Posts: 11914
DHonks said:
nodakfan17 said:
nate82 said:
I can't wait for fully autonomous driving to be a thing. No more merging etc all will be handled by the car.

Once we have fully autonomous cars traffic should be a thing of the past and commute times should be shorter. The autonomous vehicles should be able to go 100+ mph on the freeways and highways with no issue. This would require 100% autonomous vehicles or close to it.

The biggest downside of this is there would be more people moving to rural areas. The same type of move that happened after WWII.

What’s wrong with moving to the country? The negative environmental externalities? At some point, I think you’ll see the gas tax go up to discourage long commutes.


Not sure of negative environmental externalities. The modern internal combustion engine, when properly maintained, emits almost no pollutants. 95% of all pollution from cars comes from the worst (oldest, poorly maintained, or doctored for performance) 5% of vehicles.

Also the gas tax probably won’t go up (although it should have years ago). We’ll follow Oregon’s experiment and institute a driving fee where we are assessed for our mileage. As electric and hybrid vehicles continue to grow in use, we find that these heavy vehicles contribute to the wear and tear on roads, but pay minimal-to-no road maintenance fees via gas tax. That needs to be fixed by shifting from gas tax to mileage fees.


I had never heard of this so I looked it up. At first it sounded terrible, but I plan to get a gas guzzling truck soon so I would actually come out ahead in this system. That being said I got really confused when it said it doesn't track your location, but you don't pay a fee when out of state (obviously). I also didn't really understand what happens for out of state residents. Are these people paying gas tax then? But what does that do for the hybrid/electric cars people drive here? Once that becomes really prominent this system seems to not really solve the problem.

Also if we have to keep a gas tax for out of state people does that mean I am paying that tax at the pump still? Is there a way to tell you are a resident of the state so it gets subtracted off? Am I paying it, submitting mileage, and then either getting paid or paying in like normal yearly taxes?


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Offline  Re: What's bugging you? [2019]
Posted: August 23, 2019, 9:36 AM Post
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nate82 said:
I can't wait for fully autonomous driving to be a thing. No more merging etc all will be handled by the car.

Once we have fully autonomous cars traffic should be a thing of the past and commute times should be shorter. The autonomous vehicles should be able to go 100+ mph on the freeways and highways with no issue. This would require 100% autonomous vehicles or close to it.

The biggest downside of this is there would be more people moving to rural areas. The same type of move that happened after WWII.


You still need road capacity to fit all the cars. Autonomous cars won't help with that. Same for parking. Commute times will probably dip at first and then go back up. Plus I think a lot of people like being near amenities and not having to rely on a car.

"Dustin Pedroia doesn't have the strength or bat speed to hit major-league pitching consistently, and he has no power......He probably has a future as a backup infielder if he can stop rolling over to third base and shortstop." Keith Law, 2006


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Offline  Re: What's bugging you? [2019]
Posted: August 25, 2019, 4:19 PM Post
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Zippering, or anything for that matter, never works when there is construction because traffic slows at the point of construction. Zippering only works when the traffic past the zipper point is going at least the same speed as before. When traffic slows, it's simple process flow math - inflows are greater than outflows, and a bottleneck is created.

Zippering certainly does not work at the last second. It causes the vehicle in the other lane to slow down quickly to create adequate space, which causes the vehicle behind that to slow down quickly, which then causes a chain reaction and everyone behind them to stop. It also doesn't work when people are going above the posted speed limit - again, process flow math, inflows are greater than outflows causing a bottleneck. The only time zippering has a chance to work is when a) people go the posted speed limit (and slow to the reduced speed limit where it is posted) and b) people zipper at the right point - not too early, not too late. Only about 5% of people follow a), and only about 10% of people follow b), thus almost always resulting in failure.


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Offline  Re: What's bugging you? [2019]
Posted: August 26, 2019, 10:31 AM Post
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Early vs. Zipper Merge. Perhaps the solution is to have a sign showing where to zipper merge. That way, people understand where it should be an should know what to expect.

They didn't put in "late merge." The one where people start merging where the lane starts to end causing both lanes to come to a standstill.


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Offline  Re: What's bugging you? [2019]
Posted: August 26, 2019, 11:02 AM Post
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Zipper merging is one of the dumbest things ever. Why? Because it assumes that nearly every single driver is a good driver and thinks logically while doing so. As anyone who drives may know a lot of idiots are driving cars. You couldn't get 5 cars into a zipper without honking, swearing, fingers, or people cutting each other off blocking it. It does not work in reality.

It also assumes everyone is on the same page, leaves ample room between cars, and most importantly...minimal lane changing and fairly consistent speeds across the board. Which I would say none of the above ever happens.


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Offline  Re: What's bugging you? [2019]
Posted: August 26, 2019, 7:54 PM Post
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homer said:
You still need road capacity to fit all the cars. Autonomous cars won't help with that. Same for parking. Commute times will probably dip at first and then go back up. Plus I think a lot of people like being near amenities and not having to rely on a car.


To me the real advantage to autonomous cars is that there will be no parking. Or car ownership. (Except as a unessential luxury item.) I look forward to the day when I can expand my yard to where my driveway and carport are currently located. If I need a car I can order one on an app.

All of the open space on the side of streets that is currently used for parking will probably be replaced with bike lanes, which will be populated with people riding e-bikes and e-scooters.


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Offline  Re: What's bugging you? [2019]
Posted: August 26, 2019, 8:31 PM Post
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owbc said:
homer said:
You still need road capacity to fit all the cars. Autonomous cars won't help with that. Same for parking. Commute times will probably dip at first and then go back up. Plus I think a lot of people like being near amenities and not having to rely on a car.


To me the real advantage to autonomous cars is that there will be no parking. Or car ownership. (Except as a unessential luxury item.) I look forward to the day when I can expand my yard to where my driveway and carport are currently located. If I need a car I can order one on an app.

All of the open space on the side of streets that is currently used for parking will probably be replaced with bike lanes, which will be populated with people riding e-bikes and e-scooters.

But then where will the autonomous cars park when they're not being used?


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Offline  Re: What's bugging you? [2019]
Posted: August 26, 2019, 9:21 PM Post
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owbc said:
homer said:
You still need road capacity to fit all the cars. Autonomous cars won't help with that. Same for parking. Commute times will probably dip at first and then go back up. Plus I think a lot of people like being near amenities and not having to rely on a car.


To me the real advantage to autonomous cars is that there will be no parking. Or car ownership. (Except as a unessential luxury item.) I look forward to the day when I can expand my yard to where my driveway and carport are currently located. If I need a car I can order one on an app.

All of the open space on the side of streets that is currently used for parking will probably be replaced with bike lanes, which will be populated with people riding e-bikes and e-scooters.


You have more faith than I do that people will cede ownership of their cars.

"Dustin Pedroia doesn't have the strength or bat speed to hit major-league pitching consistently, and he has no power......He probably has a future as a backup infielder if he can stop rolling over to third base and shortstop." Keith Law, 2006


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Offline  Re: What's bugging you? [2019]
Posted: August 26, 2019, 10:47 PM Post
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LouisEly said:
But then where will the autonomous cars park when they're not being used?


There will be cleaning/refueling yards. The bigger ones will be in the suburbs because most of the cars will end up there at night after taking people home from work. Old shopping malls or something. But the key is that the total # of cars needed will only be a small fraction of the number out there now...right now cars sit around unused most of the time. Autonomous cars will constantly be moving.Even at peak commute time every city has hundreds of thousands of parked cars that can be eliminated.

homer said:
You have more faith than I do that people will cede ownership of their cars.


Nobody will be forced to do so. People in rural areas will probably still own cars. But imagine a cheaper, autonomous version of Uber/Lyft...like an unlimited monthly subscription. People who live in cities would be all over that. And if you travel frequently you would no longer need to rent a car at the airport.


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Offline  Re: What's bugging you? [2019]
Posted: August 27, 2019, 9:17 AM Post
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I don't think the government will make people give up their vehicles. I think people will have a hard time using rentals all the time. I use Car2Go here in Chicago and it's great for people like me that only need a car once a month but the cars are generally dirty and probably 20% of the time they smell like weed. Unless self driving cars are also self cleaning that will be an issue. Secondly, the cars still need to move from the yards to the residences and back again. In areas were there isn't as much population density they will probably be traveling quite a distance to get to a residence.

I do like your idea in theory - a subscription service for cars sounds cool and probably will exist at some level - but I don't know if it solves enough problems to actually reduce traffic and increase walking/biking. I'd like to read some thoughts from urban planners on that one.

"Dustin Pedroia doesn't have the strength or bat speed to hit major-league pitching consistently, and he has no power......He probably has a future as a backup infielder if he can stop rolling over to third base and shortstop." Keith Law, 2006


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Offline  Re: What's bugging you? [2019]
Posted: August 27, 2019, 7:56 PM Post
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owbc said:
There will be cleaning/refueling yards. The bigger ones will be in the suburbs because most of the cars will end up there at night after taking people home from work. Old shopping malls or something. But the key is that the total # of cars needed will only be a small fraction of the number out there now...right now cars sit around unused most of the time. Autonomous cars will constantly be moving.Even at peak commute time every city has hundreds of thousands of parked cars that can be eliminated.

Nobody will be forced to do so. People in rural areas will probably still own cars. But imagine a cheaper, autonomous version of Uber/Lyft...like an unlimited monthly subscription. People who live in cities would be all over that. And if you travel frequently you would no longer need to rent a car at the airport.

You and I must have very different definitions of the word "autonomous". To me it means that a driver is not necessary; it drives itself safely without human intervention. You are implying shared/community ownership. I can own an autonomous vehicle, but have no obligation to let anyone else use it.


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Offline  Re: What's bugging you? [2019]
Posted: August 27, 2019, 9:29 PM Post
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Y’all are living in the year 3000.


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Offline  Re: What's bugging you? [2019]
Posted: August 28, 2019, 10:11 PM Post
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LouisEly said:
You and I must have very different definitions of the word "autonomous". To me it means that a driver is not necessary; it drives itself safely without human intervention. You are implying shared/community ownership. I can own an autonomous vehicle, but have no obligation to let anyone else use it.


Yes you can but your current car sits unused 95% of the time. So if you have the ability to rent your driverless car to others when you are not using it it would be to your advantage.


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Offline  Re: What's bugging you? [2019]
Posted: August 29, 2019, 7:52 AM Post
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MrTPlush said:
Zipper merging is one of the dumbest things ever. Why? Because it assumes that nearly every single driver is a good driver and thinks logically while doing so. As anyone who drives may know a lot of idiots are driving cars. You couldn't get 5 cars into a zipper without honking, swearing, fingers, or people cutting each other off blocking it. It does not work in reality.

It also assumes everyone is on the same page, leaves ample room between cars, and most importantly...minimal lane changing and fairly consistent speeds across the board. Which I would say none of the above ever happens.



So, what is your alternative solution? I'll agree that it assumes that "nearly every single driver is a good driver and thinks logically" and that is why it doesn't work. It doesn't mean it's one of the dumbest things ever just because some people can't understand the logic behind it. I think most ideas, laws, ordinances, etc that are put in place assume this. It's unfortunate that this is not reality.


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Offline  Re: What's bugging you? [2019]
Posted: August 29, 2019, 8:25 AM Post
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Patrick425 said:
MrTPlush said:
Zipper merging is one of the dumbest things ever. Why? Because it assumes that nearly every single driver is a good driver and thinks logically while doing so. As anyone who drives may know a lot of idiots are driving cars. You couldn't get 5 cars into a zipper without honking, swearing, fingers, or people cutting each other off blocking it. It does not work in reality.

It also assumes everyone is on the same page, leaves ample room between cars, and most importantly...minimal lane changing and fairly consistent speeds across the board. Which I would say none of the above ever happens.



So, what is your alternative solution? I'll agree that it assumes that "nearly every single driver is a good driver and thinks logically" and that is why it doesn't work. It doesn't mean it's one of the dumbest things ever just because some people can't understand the logic behind it. I think most ideas, laws, ordinances, etc that are put in place assume this. It's unfortunate that this is not reality.


Exaggerating a bit obviously, just that it isn't really realistic that people will follow it.

I am not sure the solution...not sure there really is one. Maybe if we had autonomous cars that all communicated with each other…(haha not kidding).


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Offline  Re: What's bugging you? [2019]
Posted: August 30, 2019, 11:05 PM Post
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I'm watching TBS, as they have a Star Wars marathon on. It's amazing how much better the visual effects in Ep 4-6 were than 1-3.


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Offline  Re: What's bugging you? [2019]
Posted: August 31, 2019, 10:39 PM Post
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LouisEly said:
owbc said:
There will be cleaning/refueling yards. The bigger ones will be in the suburbs because most of the cars will end up there at night after taking people home from work. Old shopping malls or something. But the key is that the total # of cars needed will only be a small fraction of the number out there now...right now cars sit around unused most of the time. Autonomous cars will constantly be moving.Even at peak commute time every city has hundreds of thousands of parked cars that can be eliminated.

Nobody will be forced to do so. People in rural areas will probably still own cars. But imagine a cheaper, autonomous version of Uber/Lyft...like an unlimited monthly subscription. People who live in cities would be all over that. And if you travel frequently you would no longer need to rent a car at the airport.

You and I must have very different definitions of the word "autonomous". To me it means that a driver is not necessary; it drives itself safely without human intervention. You are implying shared/community ownership. I can own an autonomous vehicle, but have no obligation to let anyone else use it.

I would never be able to share cars. I have no faith in humans to keep those things even a little decently clean. People treat everything like it is their own already in public spaces with little concern or others. Those shared cars would be nasty and filled with garbage.

Fan is short for fanatic.
I blame Wang.


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Offline  Re: What's bugging you? [2019]
Posted: September 02, 2019, 9:50 AM Post
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I'm imagining pulling over one of those borrowed cars, finding drugs and the driver saying "Uh, that must have been there when the car drove to my house to pick me up."

Though I could see borrowed cars working in a big city, isn't that function already being performed by taxis and mass transit?


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Offline  Re: What's bugging you? [2019]
Posted: September 02, 2019, 2:04 PM Post
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I’ve read that the insurance companies are going to drive the push toward automated cars. Although I’m not sure why they would be needed anymore. I read a scary statistic last year where they asked people to assess their driving skill. Something like 80% of drivers feel they are better than average. Think about that.


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