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COVID-19 Thread

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Offline  Re: COVID-19 Thread
Posted: June 22, 2020, 3:19 PM Post
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tmwiese55 said:
great post owbc. On the hospital workers and masks topic. As of 2-3 weeks ago, my friend who works in the hospital in Madison (not on covid) has still been forced to re-use masks as long as they possibly can. This reminds me to maybe ask her tonight what the current status is. Early March they went from normal down to 1 per day. Then I'd say by mid April it was down to as long as possible. This is heart surgeries too, so you're often going patient to patient with blood from one patient to the next multiple times once this got put in place. And just in general, wearing a blood stained mask for days.


My dental assistant said that they put on a cheap mask on over their N95 masks to keep the N95 mask clean. Thus, they can use the N95 mask for days and the cheap mask for each patient. (This was last week.)


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Offline  Re: COVID-19 Thread
Posted: June 22, 2020, 3:22 PM Post
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OldSchoolSnapper said:
I'm not so sure this is true. We've also all seen the images and videos from Lake Geneva and places like it all over the country with tons of people not distancing at all.


Bah! Lake Geneva is just filled with Illinois Cub fans let them get sick! Having lived there (and friends still in the area), the first half is certainly true...

For the Twin Cities, very little (Menards?) requires a mask. I'd say few wear them unless they are going to be in a crowded situation.


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Offline  Re: COVID-19 Thread
Posted: June 22, 2020, 4:07 PM Post
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tmwiese55 said:
great post owbc. On the hospital workers and masks topic. As of 2-3 weeks ago, my friend who works in the hospital in Madison (not on covid) has still been forced to re-use masks as long as they possibly can. This reminds me to maybe ask her tonight what the current status is. Early March they went from normal down to 1 per day. Then I'd say by mid April it was down to as long as possible. This is heart surgeries too, so you're often going patient to patient with blood from one patient to the next multiple times once this got put in place. And just in general, wearing a blood stained mask for days.


I can't speak to your friend as I'm not a surgeon and I don't know her hospital's policies, but at my hospital putting myself in a situation where I splash blood up on my face without a full face shield+ would get me sent to remedial blood-borne pathogen training even during COVID. Continuing to wear said bloody mask while seeing other patients would certainly draw the attention of coworkers and OHSA staff to say the least.


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Offline  Re: COVID-19 Thread
Posted: June 22, 2020, 4:36 PM Post
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Location: Madison, WI
Yup they have the shields too, but from what I understand some splatters gets onto the masks at times. And no I didn't mean like a full blown splashing or gobs on it if that's the way it sounded, I think that would warrant the end of that mask. Or of course I could've mistaken what she meant or was describing.


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Offline  Re: COVID-19 Thread
Posted: June 22, 2020, 4:41 PM Post
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Location: Madison, WI
To some of the talk on lack of people listening and what you're seeing. I'd generally agree with the sentiments of once you get out of the cities it just goes way down but as someone said it's anecdotal. What about a phraising like this that might make sense from what you're all describing?: When you see people out and about being social they're generally not adhering, but it still seems lots of people are staying home and taking it seriously. I don't know if that's true or anything, I guess I kind of think it is but am by no means adamant on any take on it as I'm not out enough to really gather an opinion.


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Online  Re: COVID-19 Thread
Posted: June 22, 2020, 7:59 PM Post
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It's tough to really pin down what a "normal" hospital/ICU bed usage rate is prior to COVID-19 in the US because it does vary seasonally and from year to year, but conventional wisdom has that percentage hovering around 75%. If hospital bed capacity is far lower than that for too long, the hospital system suffers because it isn't making enough money with surgeries or procedures that require hospital bed use/equipment and staff to administer care to those patients - and medical costs as a whole increase to make up for lost revenue from too many empty beds. As hospital systems have gradually reopened for conducting non-COVID19 related procedures, we're now seeing concern about hospital bed capacities from people tracking daily tallies similarly to how they were tracking them in late March, but that data isn't being fully put into the context of what it means in late June. As far as I can tell, none of these apparent hot spot states with shrinking hospital system capacity are urgently requesting military/field hospitals be constructed, or even putting wheels into motion to get their untapped surge ICU bed capacities dusted off for use. This is in large part due to many of these COVID-19 hospitalization patients not showing up at hospitals with just COVID-19 symptoms requiring intubation - there are a large number of patients coming in for other surgeries, childbirths, other critical care that were set to take up a hospital bed for a few days anyways. These people are all tested (in part for infection safety but at this point equally for financial purposes), and a decent chunk have become COVID-19 positive cases who also are logged as hospitalizations even though they're not symptomatic.

Arizona is presently one of these apparent alarm bell states, which happens to have roughly 80-85% of its beds in use, both from a general hospital bed and ICU bed capacity. In a vacuum that number is indeed alarming, especially considering how many snowbirds may be spending the summer down there because it was difficult for them to travel back north. However digging more into AZ's numbers, the state still has roughly 60% of its ventilator capacity available and plenty of emergency department bed capacity. Also, daily COVID19 hospitalization discharges are spiking right along with the increases in both daily overall and COVID19-positive hospitalizations while COVID-related deaths are holding steady or even declining - indicative of patients who were admitted to a hospital for something other than COVID19 who tested positive for the virus while taking up a hospital bed until they were discharged a few days later because they were asymptomatic or simply didn't require continued hospitalization due to the virus.

I'm not saying AZ's numbers aren't worth watching closely in the coming weeks and months, but there's alot more to the data being looked at than what is being reported by those who are chasing where the 'next New York' is going to happen. Frankly, hospitalizations specific to COVID19 symptoms should be closely tracked everywhere - however the growing disconnect between case counts and the percentage of cases that require hospitalization entirely due to COVID19 symptoms needs to be better explained to the general public. Otherwise there will continue to be unnecessary panic every time a hospital system has more than 3/4 of its beds occupied. The steady rise of hospital bed use, including ICU bed use, is part of the medical system getting back to its business and the country as a whole maintaining its overall health due to all things non-COVID.


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Offline  Re: COVID-19 Thread
Posted: June 22, 2020, 8:37 PM Post
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Once you get out of larger cities you have less interaction with people. Not less chance to spread but if it does spread it will spread to fewer people.

Fan is short for fanatic.
I blame Wang.


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Offline  Re: COVID-19 Thread
Posted: June 22, 2020, 10:45 PM Post
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Fear The Chorizo said:
It's tough to really pin down what a "normal" hospital/ICU bed usage rate is prior to COVID-19 in the US because it does vary seasonally and from year to year, but conventional wisdom has that percentage hovering around 75%.


I'm certainly interested in reading up on this as well and it would be helpful to know where the conventional wisdom is coming from here. It would be interesting to review the source data as well.


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Offline  Re: COVID-19 Thread
Posted: June 22, 2020, 10:55 PM Post
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I live in a smaller community in north central Wisconsin, and we have a lot of older residents. Just based on my own observations, the elderly have been more diligent than younger people about using masks. A couple of 40 year olds walking into the grocery store are far less likely to be wearing a mask than a 60 or 70 year old. I'm surprised at how many families are out doing things who don't wear masks. 40 year old mom in the grocery store with four kids running around - stuff like that.

I'm guessing a lot of this comes from the fact that the elderly are far more vulnerable to the virus than young people. They don't want to die - makes sense.

It also might be that the older a person gets, the more likely he/she knows of someone who has gotten COVID - and in some cases, died from it.

Men seem to the more likely not to wear a mask (again, just from my observations). Especially (as I said before), younger men (below 50ish).


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Offline  Re: COVID-19 Thread
Posted: June 23, 2020, 6:33 AM Post
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reillymcshane said:
Especially (as I said before), younger men (below 50ish).


Best thing that I've read in a long time! Not that younger men don't wear masks...but that you consider under 50 to be younger-ish. [smile]


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Offline  Re: COVID-19 Thread
Posted: June 23, 2020, 6:53 AM Post
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reillymcshane said:
I live in a smaller community in north central Wisconsin, and we have a lot of older residents. Just based on my own observations, the elderly have been more diligent than younger people about using masks. A couple of 40 year olds walking into the grocery store are far less likely to be wearing a mask than a 60 or 70 year old. I'm surprised at how many families are out doing things who don't wear masks. 40 year old mom in the grocery store with four kids running around - stuff like that.

I'm guessing a lot of this comes from the fact that the elderly are far more vulnerable to the virus than young people. They don't want to die - makes sense.

It also might be that the older a person gets, the more likely he/she knows of someone who has gotten COVID - and in some cases, died from it.

Men seem to the more likely not to wear a mask (again, just from my observations). Especially (as I said before), younger men (below 50ish).


I live in a (very) small town in northern Wisconsin. I think most people around here are going pretty well safety-wise. One thing I have noticed, though, is in the touristy-type towns like Eagle River and Minocqua, people are basically operating like normal on weekends (i.e. large groups, no masks, in and out of every store downtown). I assume most of these people are vacationers and second homeowners from downstate or Illinois/Minnesota, but to me, that seems odd, as I would think if you live in an area where the virus is more prevalent, you'd be more precautious. But no ... I guess when you take a vacation from work, you take a vacation from safety as well. I've heard some rumblings that the majority of the ICU beds available at our hospitals up here (there aren't many) are filled with people who don't actually have a home address here.

This hasn't happened to me personally, but I've heard several reports of people actually being shamed for wearing masks some places around here. Like men walking up behind women and Baaaaing like a sheep, or people continuing to claim that you've "fallen for the hoax". If that happened to me in a store or out in public, I don't know how I would react, but it wouldn't be pleasantly.

Formerly Joey Meyer Bombs


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Offline  Re: COVID-19 Thread
Posted: June 23, 2020, 8:37 AM Post
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Location: Madison, WI
Good post Chorizo. I saw some yesterday where some of these spots do show other trends to show its more than "we're testing more" where things like hospitalization and such are more, there was one other factor I'm forgetting. But like you said, at this point I don't think it's freakout stage or anything, watch it closely and keep getting data and maybe specific spots need to clamp down a bit more. But seems early right now to make too much of it yet. One I've watched for a while is the active cases number/trend, after peaking and starting to dip that has been rising again. Overall not good sign, but again we are going to have spikes/blips or whatever especially since so much has reopened. Hopefully the next week or two the concerning numbers we've all been seeing pushed out there lately start to turn in a good way. If not, yea maybe some tweaks needs to be put in.

For masks discussion yesterday I did get an update and some clarification. About a week ago they were told they can ease up and not push it anymore. It's still not back to the old days of one per case but having to use for days isn't needed anymore. And yea the push before would be to keep using with some spatters of blood or whatever fluids, but if it was legit "wet" you could get a new one. Also had to go to sign out process for a while on it. Also to note, these are surgical masks not N95, this group only needs N95 if they haven't been able to covid test someone first, which is basically only in true emergency situations.


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Offline  Re: COVID-19 Thread
Posted: June 23, 2020, 9:11 AM Post
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tmwiese55 said:
And yea the push before would be to keep using with some spatters of blood or whatever fluids, but if it was legit "wet" you could get a new one.


I don't really care to discuss it further other than to say that this is a highly unusual and very dangerous practice even by COVID-emergency standards.


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Offline  Re: COVID-19 Thread
Posted: June 23, 2020, 10:37 AM Post
Posts: 5420
Location: Madison, WI
I mean, that's the point isn't it? That it isn't right and they were forced to do it by the situation and lack of supplies. Said some would go up to a week with 1 mask. Maybe their management were being overly worried on it though, or maybe since this group doesn't deal with covid patients they got the short end of the stick on priority, idk.


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Offline  Re: COVID-19 Thread
Posted: June 23, 2020, 12:02 PM Post
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Ron Robinson's Beard said:
This hasn't happened to me personally, but I've heard several reports of people actually being shamed for wearing masks some places around here. Like men walking up behind women and Baaaaing like a sheep, or people continuing to claim that you've "fallen for the hoax". If that happened to me in a store or out in public, I don't know how I would react, but it wouldn't be pleasantly.


I've thought a bit about this too, because I have definitely received some dirty looks while wearing a mask and wondered what I would say if someone said something to me. To those people I think "I'm not wearing this to protect me, I'm wearing it to protect you. You can fall into one of three buckets: gratitude, apathy, or disdain. While I would prefer bucket #1 and can at least understand bucket #2, how can you be so out-of-touch as to end up in bucket #3?"


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Online  Re: COVID-19 Thread
Posted: June 23, 2020, 2:50 PM Post
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Fear The Chorizo said:
It's tough to really pin down what a "normal" hospital/ICU bed usage rate is prior to COVID-19 in the US because it does vary seasonally and from year to year, but conventional wisdom has that percentage hovering around 75%. If hospital bed capacity is far lower than that for too long, the hospital system suffers because it isn't making enough money with surgeries or procedures that require hospital bed use/equipment and staff to administer care to those patients - and medical costs as a whole increase to make up for lost revenue from too many empty beds. As hospital systems have gradually reopened for conducting non-COVID19 related procedures, we're now seeing concern about hospital bed capacities from people tracking daily tallies similarly to how they were tracking them in late March, but that data isn't being fully put into the context of what it means in late June. As far as I can tell, none of these apparent hot spot states with shrinking hospital system capacity are urgently requesting military/field hospitals be constructed, or even putting wheels into motion to get their untapped surge ICU bed capacities dusted off for use. This is in large part due to many of these COVID-19 hospitalization patients not showing up at hospitals with just COVID-19 symptoms requiring intubation - there are a large number of patients coming in for other surgeries, childbirths, other critical care that were set to take up a hospital bed for a few days anyways. These people are all tested (in part for infection safety but at this point equally for financial purposes), and a decent chunk have become COVID-19 positive cases who also are logged as hospitalizations even though they're not symptomatic.

I have a relative who is an administrative position with a large hospital system in the Eau Claire area. He said their ICU is full, but only four of them are COVID patients. I asked if they have had an abnormal amount of accidents, heart attacks, etc., and he said that most of them were people who waited to get treatment (assuming out of fear of coming into a medical facility) and waited too long.


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Offline  Re: COVID-19 Thread
Posted: June 23, 2020, 3:41 PM Post
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Location: Madison, WI
Same info my friend has said on people not coming in (no info on ICU numbers). Basically, it was super slow during April to mid May for emergency heart issues. Like why would heart issues stop? They didn't really know why and best guess they could come up with is what you said in that people didn't come in and powered through some things (or passed at home) and subsequently it's now been really busy in the last few weeks (combined with planned procedures that were delayed). With the guess being what you said, things that have been building up due to not coming in are now hitting the wall. Again, they don't really know, it's pure speculation and best guess.


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Online  Re: COVID-19 Thread
Posted: June 24, 2020, 7:41 AM Post
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These people are all tested (in part for infection safety but at this point equally for financial purposes), and a decent chunk have become COVID-19 positive cases who also are logged as hospitalizations even though they're not symptomatic.


I missed this first time around. Are you saying people that test positive and are sent home are counted as a hospitalization? Or are you saying that people that are not symptomatic are admitted because they have a positive test? I don't believe either case to be true but happy to be proven wrong.

"Dustin Pedroia doesn't have the strength or bat speed to hit major-league pitching consistently, and he has no power......He probably has a future as a backup infielder if he can stop rolling over to third base and shortstop." Keith Law, 2006


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Offline  Re: COVID-19 Thread
Posted: June 24, 2020, 9:45 AM Post
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homer said:
These people are all tested (in part for infection safety but at this point equally for financial purposes), and a decent chunk have become COVID-19 positive cases who also are logged as hospitalizations even though they're not symptomatic.


I missed this first time around. Are you saying people that test positive and are sent home are counted as a hospitalization? Or are you saying that people that are not symptomatic are admitted because they have a positive test? I don't believe either case to be true but happy to be proven wrong.


I read his statement as people coming in for other reasons, but being logged as COVID-positive, despite being asymptomatic and not there for COVID reasons. The statement just before the part you quoted:

This is in large part due to many of these COVID-19 hospitalization patients not showing up at hospitals with just COVID-19 symptoms requiring intubation - there are a large number of patients coming in for other surgeries, childbirths, other critical care that were set to take up a hospital bed for a few days anyways.


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Online  Re: COVID-19 Thread
Posted: June 24, 2020, 10:05 AM Post
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CheezWizHed said:
homer said:
These people are all tested (in part for infection safety but at this point equally for financial purposes), and a decent chunk have become COVID-19 positive cases who also are logged as hospitalizations even though they're not symptomatic.


I missed this first time around. Are you saying people that test positive and are sent home are counted as a hospitalization? Or are you saying that people that are not symptomatic are admitted because they have a positive test? I don't believe either case to be true but happy to be proven wrong.


I read his statement as people coming in for other reasons, but being logged as COVID-positive, despite being asymptomatic and not there for COVID reasons. The statement just before the part you quoted:

This is in large part due to many of these COVID-19 hospitalization patients not showing up at hospitals with just COVID-19 symptoms requiring intubation - there are a large number of patients coming in for other surgeries, childbirths, other critical care that were set to take up a hospital bed for a few days anyways.



OK, so people are coming in for a sprained ankle, testing positive for Covid despite being asymptomatic, and then being logged as a Covid case instead of as a sprained ankle. Am I understanding this correctly?

Also, AZ ICU bed capacity is at 88% as of this morning.

"Dustin Pedroia doesn't have the strength or bat speed to hit major-league pitching consistently, and he has no power......He probably has a future as a backup infielder if he can stop rolling over to third base and shortstop." Keith Law, 2006


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