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COVID-19 aftermath: What things will change forever?

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Offline  Re: COVID-19 aftermath: What things will change forever?
Posted: June 02, 2020, 3:55 PM Post
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Once again...I haven't held this position "all along."

Let's recap: You called out hypocrisy and accuse people of digging in their heels.

You make a highly debatable claim that the lockdowns made a significant difference. Something many scientists are actively arguing over.

You then say that you can't have a conversation with people who argue that point.

You then claim that a poster judged people for wearing a mask - a straw man - a claim nobody made. You left out the significant detail that they specified wearing a mask on a bike ride/jog down a country road.

Sorry, that was a strawman. You countered an argument nobody made.


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Offline  Re: COVID-19 aftermath: What things will change forever?
Posted: June 02, 2020, 4:00 PM Post
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tmwiese55 said:
OldSchoolSnapper said:
tmwiese55 said:
Saw subsequent posts trying to cling to deathrate now to prove you've been right along. This has never been about deathrate,


Think you should go backwards in this thread a bit. I was very wrong. Just not the way you think. I was all for every lockdown. I was scared. You can go to the first few pages to see that. In the face of reality I changed my thoughts.


OK. So 100K people have died and that's changed your mind to think it's not a big deal. Okey dokey, if you say so.


Death rate flirting with 1/8 of the projections, most likely even less than that, and fatalities almost entirely tied to very old people or very sick people, combined with basically no evidence that children transmit, and numerous parts of the world taking far less restrictive measures, led me to believe that, yes, we probably overshot on all the safety measures, healthy people should have had far less restrictions, school should have and reopened, and we probably did a lot of unnecessary harm to the health of our state and nation, financially and psychologically.

Now, that was fine, because we didn't know. I can give a complete pass on that. For a month. Not into May.


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Offline  Re: COVID-19 aftermath: What things will change forever?
Posted: June 02, 2020, 4:01 PM Post
Posts: 5210
Location: Madison, WI
Sorry, that is exactly what the person was doing in this thread.

Also, my comment on the "can't have a conversation" was not related that point on masks. it was made a weekish back on the crazy ideas spewed acting like all this is overblown bs. I also specifically said it was jogging people. Someone saying they laugh at masks does not automatically put them in the 'this is all overblown' type camp. Sooo, who's strawmanning now?

It is not debatable that lockdowns helped slow the spread.

You are proving every reason why I have avoided this topic. Thanks and good bye.


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Offline  Re: COVID-19 aftermath: What things will change forever?
Posted: June 02, 2020, 4:03 PM Post
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tmwiese55 said:

It is not debatable that lockdowns helped slow the spread.


It completely is. Saying this and running away doesn't make it a fact, no matter how many people like to argue this way these days.


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Offline  Re: COVID-19 aftermath: What things will change forever?
Posted: June 02, 2020, 5:32 PM Post
Posts: 5210
Location: Madison, WI
I will not argue with you on whether a communicable disease that is transferred person to person will have a reduction in spread if person to person contact is reduced.

You're a good poster overall. If it's true you haven't held the 'this is all overhyped bs' view from the start I suggest taking a step back and taking a breath. You're going down the wrong wormhole of information. I'd guess just too much time on our hands now leads to too much digging. Remember you just picked a fight with someone for essentially saying "dude, maybe we shouldn't make fun of or laugh at people that are just trying to help at a crazy time". Perhaps thats a good point to think maybe one is going down the wrong road.


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Offline  Re: COVID-19 aftermath: What things will change forever?
Posted: June 02, 2020, 5:40 PM Post
Posts: 1997
tmwiese55 said:
I will not argue with you on whether a communicable disease that is transferred person to person will have a reduction in spread if person to person contact is reduced.

You're a good poster overall. If it's true you haven't held the 'this is all overhyped bs' view from the start I suggest taking a step back and taking a breath. You're going down the wrong wormhole of information. I'd guess just too much time on our hands now leads to too much digging. Remember you just picked a fight with someone for essentially saying "dude, maybe we shouldn't make fun of or laugh at people that are just trying to help at a crazy time". Perhaps thats a good point to think maybe one is going down the wrong road.


Man did I create the outrage over saying i chuckle to myself over something so simple as what I said. I didn’t hurt anybody, I didn’t hurt feelings, I didn’t call anyone a racist, and we have a page and a half?

Jesus y’all are wound tight. Do you ever laugh...at anything in life? I’m sorry if I offended but I’ve been quite offended over the reaction to this for 2 months after seeing it clearly wasn’t what we thought it was. So I guess we’re even.


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Offline  Re: COVID-19 aftermath: What things will change forever?
Posted: June 02, 2020, 6:01 PM Post
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tmwiese55 said:
I will not argue with you on whether a communicable disease that is transferred person to person will have a reduction in spread if person to person contact is reduced.

You're a good poster overall. If it's true you haven't held the 'this is all overhyped bs' view from the start I suggest taking a step back and taking a breath. You're going down the wrong wormhole of information. I'd guess just too much time on our hands now leads to too much digging. Remember you just picked a fight with someone for essentially saying "dude, maybe we shouldn't make fun of or laugh at people that are just trying to help at a crazy time". Perhaps thats a good point to think maybe one is going down the wrong road.


We're arguing two different things. If everyone sits at home and the entire population remains inside then obviously the virus has nowhere to go.

But that's not quite the same as saying the lockdown measures worked, because 1) 100% compliance isn't possible. 2) The degree to which people complied is all but impossible to quantify. 3) It's even harder to quantify the economic cost. 4) A bunch of places used various levels of them with very similar results.

My main objection is that this isn't about death rate. Of course it is, c'mon. That was the whole deal. We got that way wrong. It started become obvious that we were. So that should have been the time to reevaluate, not double down.

As a society we argue all the time about things that have much more concrete data than this, which has been very much touch and go the entire time. So to say the lockdown measures made this better and it's not debatable? I just can't get on that train.

One of the arguments posed early on was that it wouldn't actually SAVE lives (which someone can correct me but I believe that's born out), but it would delay death enough to give hospitals a breather. Once we miscalculated the death rate, it started to look like we really overshot on safety and the hospitals wouldn't have been that taxed on a national level in the first place.

Again though, I'm ok with that. It's forgiveable to get it wrong as you're basically guessing. But at some point it's time reevaluate. Not change the goal from flatten the curve to vaccine.


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Offline  Re: COVID-19 aftermath: What things will change forever?
Posted: June 02, 2020, 6:09 PM Post
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OK, so anything else that might change forever?


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Offline  Re: COVID-19 aftermath: What things will change forever?
Posted: June 02, 2020, 6:12 PM Post
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LouisEly said:
OK, so anything else that might change forever?


Got Tball rules. No snacks (more than ok with this) no high fives, no sportsmanship lineup, only 3 in dugout, 6 feet at all times, etc etc. Bleachers removed.

It's completely unenforceable.


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Offline  Re: COVID-19 aftermath: What things will change forever?
Posted: June 03, 2020, 7:18 AM Post
Posts: 46
I honestly don't see anything major changing forever. This isn't the first pandemic, nor the worst pandemic. There's nothing particularly novel about COVID19 itself. I think the reasons this 'feels' different is 1) it's arguably the first true pandemic in living memory for most people, 2) numbers are publicly available in realtime, 3) social media allows everyone to publicly comment their opinions on outbreak modeling and the efficacy of mitigation efforts. There are certainly things I would like to change, but I have little hope that they actually will.


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Offline  Re: COVID-19 aftermath: What things will change forever?
Posted: June 03, 2020, 8:05 AM Post
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Machu Peach said:
I honestly don't see anything major changing forever. This isn't the first pandemic, nor the worst pandemic. There's nothing particularly novel about COVID19 itself. I think the reasons this 'feels' different is 1) it's arguably the first true pandemic in living memory for most people, 2) numbers are publicly available in realtime, 3) social media allows everyone to publicly comment their opinions on outbreak modeling and the efficacy of mitigation efforts. There are certainly things I would like to change, but I have little hope that they actually will.


We don't handle risk and danger at all like we used to. We are peppered with doom 24/7 and it has had a major affect on the psyche of people. That is why I believe there is a real possibility that many things never look the same after this.


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Offline  Re: COVID-19 aftermath: What things will change forever?
Posted: June 03, 2020, 8:18 AM Post
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OldSchoolSnapper said:

We are peppered with doom 24/7 and it has had a major affect on the psyche of people.


It is impossible to get away from without taking drastic measures.

Doesn't matter what local news you watch, it is constantly the subject.

National news media, lol Forget it, constant doom and gloom, blaming, dividing, just looking for reasons to bring us all down.

Social media is unbearable and a complete embarrassment.

I am currently taking a few days away from it all. No news, no social media, just sitcoms, dvds, and movies if I am engaging in a screen...

No wonder we have so much mental illness, and the events of the past few months is only going to increase it.

As a society, we have become weak and ineffective with handling our own feelings and thoughts. The wussification of America continues, and there is no end in sight.

"I'm sick of runnin' from these wimps!" Ajax - The WARRIORS


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Offline  Re: COVID-19 aftermath: What things will change forever?
Posted: June 03, 2020, 8:23 AM Post
Posts: 5116
OldSchoolSnapper said:
LouisEly said:
OK, so anything else that might change forever?


Got Tball rules. No snacks (more than ok with this) no high fives, no sportsmanship lineup, only 3 in dugout, 6 feet at all times, etc etc. Bleachers removed.

It's completely unenforceable.


At least you have T-ball - ours was cancelled. I'm actually trying to pull together an informal Tball/baseball skills practice that will happen nights we were supposed to have games if parents still want their kids to play.

We are going to see a whole bunch of rules for youth activities/school/etc that get hastily thrown together to make parents feel comfortable moreso than doing anything that actually is enforceable and beneficial from a public health standpoint.

I guess at least if there's not bleachers the coaches won't be able to hear parents yelling at them as clearly since they'll be parked on the street in their cars trying to scream through a face covering because Timmy got too close to Jimmy or there were 5 kids in an open air "dugout" for 10 seconds. That's a benefit.


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Offline  Re: COVID-19 aftermath: What things will change forever?
Posted: June 03, 2020, 9:03 AM Post
Posts: 348
turborickey said:
OldSchoolSnapper said:

We are peppered with doom 24/7 and it has had a major affect on the psyche of people.


It is impossible to get away from without taking drastic measures.

Doesn't matter what local news you watch, it is constantly the subject.

National news media, lol Forget it, constant doom and gloom, blaming, dividing, just looking for reasons to bring us all down.

Social media is unbearable and a complete embarrassment.

I am currently taking a few days away from it all. No news, no social media, just sitcoms, dvds, and movies if I am engaging in a screen...

No wonder we have so much mental illness, and the events of the past few months is only going to increase it.

As a society, we have become weak and ineffective with handling our own feelings and thoughts. The wussification of America continues, and there is no end in sight.


As someone who attempted suicide eight years ago....this has been a rough couple of months. Going from having outlets, knowing what works for me to keep my mind in order, knowing what keeps me happy to being screamed at that if I go outside I'm going to kill everyone's grandparents. Being told that 'everything is worth it if we save one life!' all while feeling like I was slipping lower and lower than even where I was a decade ago always made it ring false to me. I've empathized with those wellness studies more than most I suspect because, well, that's me. Being able to go out last weekend, sit at a bar, have a beer, whine about the fact that there's no baseball, and have people happy to see me may have very well saved my life. This week, people I've admitted that to have rolled their eyes and called me selfish. Well, I mean I guess. I don't want to be dead, despite what I sometimes tell myself in bad moments. Is it selfish to want to be alive?

I never liked the virtual or phone aspect of talking to people. I don't feel like they're paying attention. It's stupid. I'm sure they are. But it doesn't matter because my mind convinces me they aren't. Which ends up making me feel even more insignificant and worthless and I end up ending said sessions feeling worse than when I began.

But six weeks of nothing to do but check social media has taken more of a mental toll on me than most anything else I can think of. And I've noticed it's all partisan. It's all yelling and screaming. And it's all outdated with no care. Stopping looking at it has done more for my mental health than almost anything. And I highly suggest going that route. Twitter is filled with people who immediately seem any form of positivity as inherently stupid. Because intelligence can only be rated based on how snide you can be in 140 characters. It's...well it's bad.

I don't know what I really wanted to say. But avoiding twitter helped me a lot for a long while. It's all a performance, though. There's a NPR article circulating now about how antibody results indicate the virus is less deadly than thought. Six weeks ago, when papers in CA and MA said the same thing and it was cited by people on the right it instantly became an echo chamber of 'results are inaccurate! No test is reliable!' Now, it's the same just with the aisles flipped. I swear the worst thing to have right now is a memory that lasts more than fifteen minutes. There's no thought, there's no real discussion on those platforms. Everything is instantly 'us vs them' and 'what about X!'

I'm not sure what point I wanted to make but I felt like I had to write something. Two weeks ago I wasn't positive I'd make it to see baseball played again. Now, well I'm still not sure I'll ever see baseball played against but not for reasons involving me not being here. Tuning out Social Media helped a great deal. And I was barely on it anyway. Never read the comments.


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Offline  Re: COVID-19 aftermath: What things will change forever?
Posted: June 03, 2020, 9:06 AM Post
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Fear The Chorizo said:
OldSchoolSnapper said:
LouisEly said:
OK, so anything else that might change forever?


Got Tball rules. No snacks (more than ok with this) no high fives, no sportsmanship lineup, only 3 in dugout, 6 feet at all times, etc etc. Bleachers removed.

It's completely unenforceable.


At least you have T-ball - ours was cancelled. I'm actually trying to pull together an informal Tball/baseball skills practice that will happen nights we were supposed to have games if parents still want their kids to play.

We are going to see a whole bunch of rules for youth activities/school/etc that get hastily thrown together to make parents feel comfortable moreso than doing anything that actually is enforceable and beneficial from a public health standpoint.

I guess at least if there's not bleachers the coaches won't be able to hear parents yelling at them as clearly since they'll be parked on the street in their cars trying to scream through a face covering because Timmy got too close to Jimmy or there were 5 kids in an open air "dugout" for 10 seconds. That's a benefit.


I have some serious anxiety about this league. There's no way I can prevent a bunch of 5/6 year olds from touching. I am hoping that those who stuck with it are more of them "let them play" crowd, but I am not looking forward to getting yelled at because I "let" two kids hug.


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Offline  Re: COVID-19 aftermath: What things will change forever?
Posted: June 03, 2020, 9:50 AM Post
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Posts: 8710
TheEndless7 said:
turborickey said:
OldSchoolSnapper said:

We are peppered with doom 24/7 and it has had a major affect on the psyche of people.


It is impossible to get away from without taking drastic measures.

Doesn't matter what local news you watch, it is constantly the subject.

National news media, lol Forget it, constant doom and gloom, blaming, dividing, just looking for reasons to bring us all down.

Social media is unbearable and a complete embarrassment.

I am currently taking a few days away from it all. No news, no social media, just sitcoms, dvds, and movies if I am engaging in a screen...

No wonder we have so much mental illness, and the events of the past few months is only going to increase it.

As a society, we have become weak and ineffective with handling our own feelings and thoughts. The wussification of America continues, and there is no end in sight.


As someone who attempted suicide eight years ago....this has been a rough couple of months. Going from having outlets, knowing what works for me to keep my mind in order, knowing what keeps me happy to being screamed at that if I go outside I'm going to kill everyone's grandparents. Being told that 'everything is worth it if we save one life!' all while feeling like I was slipping lower and lower than even where I was a decade ago always made it ring false to me. I've empathized with those wellness studies more than most I suspect because, well, that's me. Being able to go out last weekend, sit at a bar, have a beer, whine about the fact that there's no baseball, and have people happy to see me may have very well saved my life. This week, people I've admitted that to have rolled their eyes and called me selfish. Well, I mean I guess. I don't want to be dead, despite what I sometimes tell myself in bad moments. Is it selfish to want to be alive?

I never liked the virtual or phone aspect of talking to people. I don't feel like they're paying attention. It's stupid. I'm sure they are. But it doesn't matter because my mind convinces me they aren't. Which ends up making me feel even more insignificant and worthless and I end up ending said sessions feeling worse than when I began.

But six weeks of nothing to do but check social media has taken more of a mental toll on me than most anything else I can think of. And I've noticed it's all partisan. It's all yelling and screaming. And it's all outdated with no care. Stopping looking at it has done more for my mental health than almost anything. And I highly suggest going that route. Twitter is filled with people who immediately seem any form of positivity as inherently stupid. Because intelligence can only be rated based on how snide you can be in 140 characters. It's...well it's bad.

I don't know what I really wanted to say. But avoiding twitter helped me a lot for a long while. It's all a performance, though. There's a NPR article circulating now about how antibody results indicate the virus is less deadly than thought. Six weeks ago, when papers in CA and MA said the same thing and it was cited by people on the right it instantly became an echo chamber of 'results are inaccurate! No test is reliable!' Now, it's the same just with the aisles flipped. I swear the worst thing to have right now is a memory that lasts more than fifteen minutes. There's no thought, there's no real discussion on those platforms. Everything is instantly 'us vs them' and 'what about X!'

I'm not sure what point I wanted to make but I felt like I had to write something. Two weeks ago I wasn't positive I'd make it to see baseball played again. Now, well I'm still not sure I'll ever see baseball played against but not for reasons involving me not being here. Tuning out Social Media helped a great deal. And I was barely on it anyway. Never read the comments.


Everything you said was very personal and very real and I hope everyone appreciates your honesty.

But the bolded part is so important and I hope more people realize this. There is no rational thought or logical consistency for many people over this. My friends and I have a group chat that has been going on for 4 or 5 years now. They have been very vocally pro-lockdown since the beginning. One works in the medical field and another is in local government and very much involved in handling the COVID response. The day after the supreme court struck down the Safe at Home order the chat turned into a group temper tantrum about how stupid Republicans are and they're a bunch of science deniers and they don't care if people die. I eventually put it on silent as there was no coherent or intelligent thought involved just unhinged anger. In the weeks since, what have they been doing? One decided to take a vacation the weekend after the order was lifted and the rest have gone back to regularly going to bars and restaurants. One night a few of them went out together and shared a picture of themselves together in the chat. Not one of them wearing a mask. So basically none of them really cared about the "science" or the health of others, it was just about wanting their side to win.


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Offline  Re: COVID-19 aftermath: What things will change forever?
Posted: June 03, 2020, 10:44 AM Post
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jerichoholicninja said:
it was just about wanting their side to win.


98% of our culture is this. Social media made it worse. Social norms and most people's non-confrontational tendency used to force people to actually talk. They might not change their mind but they would be respectful. None of that happens via text.


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Offline  Re: COVID-19 aftermath: What things will change forever?
Posted: June 03, 2020, 11:48 AM Post
Posts: 5210
Location: Madison, WI
superfly said:
tmwiese55 said:
I will not argue with you on whether a communicable disease that is transferred person to person will have a reduction in spread if person to person contact is reduced.

You're a good poster overall. If it's true you haven't held the 'this is all overhyped bs' view from the start I suggest taking a step back and taking a breath. You're going down the wrong wormhole of information. I'd guess just too much time on our hands now leads to too much digging. Remember you just picked a fight with someone for essentially saying "dude, maybe we shouldn't make fun of or laugh at people that are just trying to help at a crazy time". Perhaps thats a good point to think maybe one is going down the wrong road.


Man did I create the outrage over saying i chuckle to myself over something so simple as what I said. I didn’t hurt anybody, I didn’t hurt feelings, I didn’t call anyone a racist, and we have a page and a half?

Jesus y’all are wound tight. Do you ever laugh...at anything in life? I’m sorry if I offended but I’ve been quite offended over the reaction to this for 2 months after seeing it clearly wasn’t what we thought it was. So I guess we’re even.


My friend, I suggest you look in the mirror. You picked a fight with someone who's point was essentially as simple as "be nice and empathetic, especially to someone who's just trying to help during a tough time". And you're now saying I'm the negative one and attacking me. You are literally arguing against being nice. Again, probably a good time to take a step back and take emotion/frustration and examine the info and sources that you're buying into.

No, the problem has always been the infection rate and exponential growth due to asymptomatic spread and no vaccine. It seems you got caught up in the wrong stuff back then, just as you are now. The side you're now saying was so wrong about death rate was the one at the time saying there is way more cases out there if we tested for them (thus the whole time saying the deathrate was much lower than the data indicated back then) while your faction was saying these people are crazy to lockdown with such small numbers of cases. And you're still insisting those people are wrong.

It is a fact that a disease spread through perst to person contact will have it's spread slowed by limiting person to person contact.


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Offline  Re: COVID-19 aftermath: What things will change forever?
Posted: June 03, 2020, 3:46 PM Post
Posts: 1997
tmwiese55 said:
superfly said:
tmwiese55 said:
I will not argue with you on whether a communicable disease that is transferred person to person will have a reduction in spread if person to person contact is reduced.

You're a good poster overall. If it's true you haven't held the 'this is all overhyped bs' view from the start I suggest taking a step back and taking a breath. You're going down the wrong wormhole of information. I'd guess just too much time on our hands now leads to too much digging. Remember you just picked a fight with someone for essentially saying "dude, maybe we shouldn't make fun of or laugh at people that are just trying to help at a crazy time". Perhaps thats a good point to think maybe one is going down the wrong road.


Man did I create the outrage over saying i chuckle to myself over something so simple as what I said. I didn’t hurt anybody, I didn’t hurt feelings, I didn’t call anyone a racist, and we have a page and a half?

Jesus y’all are wound tight. Do you ever laugh...at anything in life? I’m sorry if I offended but I’ve been quite offended over the reaction to this for 2 months after seeing it clearly wasn’t what we thought it was. So I guess we’re even.


My friend, I suggest you look in the mirror. You picked a fight with someone who's point was essentially as simple as "be nice and empathetic, especially to someone who's just trying to help during a tough time". And you're now saying I'm the negative one and attacking me. You are literally arguing against being nice. Again, probably a good time to take a step back and take emotion/frustration and examine the info and sources that you're buying into.

No, the problem has always been the infection rate and exponential growth due to asymptomatic spread and no vaccine. It seems you got caught up in the wrong stuff back then, just as you are now. The side you're now saying was so wrong about death rate was the one at the time saying there is way more cases out there if we tested for them (thus the whole time saying the deathrate was much lower than the data indicated back then) while your faction was saying these people are crazy to lockdown with such small numbers of cases. And you're still insisting those people are wrong.

It is a fact that a disease spread through perst to person contact will have it's spread slowed by limiting person to person contact.


The very person that started the cascade which cost us 40 million jobs is admitting lockdown had little or no effect. It’s right there in the open to see, if we were to believe his (also previously drastically false past predictions), we must also believe him this time...should we not?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... weden.html

Count me in as well to a pass on the first month. I can see the path to understanding what we did. What is beyond inexcusable and costing people their financial (and in some cases their actual) lives is May, June, July, etc. The 4th of July fireworks....really? The damage we’ve done will take years or a decade for people to crawl out of. Some never will, and some will be dead. This is an extremely serious situation. Keep the unemployment payments flowing and the country will go belly up. Keep businesses locked down and the middle class disappears. All of this for a 0.5% or so death rate HEAVILY skewed toward the elderly? What would the rate truly be if governors such as Cuomo didn’t push sick patients into nursing homes? These particular governors should be arrested, not congratulated.

I will not apologize for having perfectly harmless and to myself laughs, as they harm nobody. Im probably laughed at daily myself by people, as is everyone. I’m tired of society always having an opinion of what others think and reprimanding it, and I’m sorry that I probably offended by saying that as well.


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Offline  Re: COVID-19 aftermath: What things will change forever?
Posted: June 03, 2020, 4:23 PM Post
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The Weatherman
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I think the 4th of July fireworks cancellations are as much about local governments being broke as they are about crowd prevention.

How many businesses are actually being held back by COVID regulations at this point? It seems like the main holdup is voluntary. Restaurants, shops, etc. are all open. Even where I am in relatively cautious Washington State the stay-at-home order is over. Everything is voluntary now. The university I work for is practically begging students to come back in the fall--but they are voluntarily choosing to not register/book leases for dorm rooms. Airfare is cheap right now but people are voluntarily choosing not to fly.

I think people need to get used to the idea that many of the lost jobs are not coming back and that doesn't have anything to do with government. It is just an acceleration of trends that were already happening. I have a number of friends in management who are thankful that COVID finally gave them an opportunity to trim redundant/unnecessary parts of their businesses. Companies were just waiting for an opportunity to trim their workforces.


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