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The 2017 MLB Draft Thread (#9 Pick + #34 & #46)

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Offline  Re: The 2017 MLB Draft Thread (Currently #7 pick (6/20))
#41

Posted: June 23, 2016, 8:27 AM Post
Posts: 982
I find it curious that some of you think that our drafting policy is hunky dory will be the first ones in the transaction forum in a couple of years pounding the table that we will never get Brady Aiken, Braxton Garrett, Jason Groome etc in a trade. The young pitchers will vault high in the prospect rankings, higher than our guys. So, you certainly realize the value of these high end prospects. Now take the next step and get them in here. We can't keep drafting weak armed left fielders year after year.

I do like some prospects with upside like McClanahan, Thomas, Henry. You can hope there's a Corey Hart level guy or two coming out of tgat mix. I liked the Orimolye pick. Lara was a nice get internationally. It's the top of the draft that's the issue.


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Online  Re: The 2017 MLB Draft Thread (Currently #7 pick (6/20))
#42

Posted: June 23, 2016, 8:45 AM Post
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Austin Tatious said:
The young pitchers will vault high in the prospect rankings, higher than our guys.

Two points:

1) That's unknowable currently.

2) Prospect rankings are not the end game - fielding a talented big league team is. Whether Groome (whom 10 other teams besides the Brewers passed on - clearly they all can't be stupid?) or Garrett are ranked higher than Ray a year from now on Prospect List X is immaterial. I'm interested in what each of those players are doing 10 years from now. Ray has the talent to outperform both before even considering the high flameout rate of high school pitchers.

And I say both of those things as someone who would have preferred Garrett or Groome over Ray.


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Offline  Re: The 2017 MLB Draft Thread (Currently #7 pick (6/20))
#43

Posted: June 23, 2016, 10:18 AM Post
Posts: 299
Location: La Crosse
Austin Tatious said:
The Miami folks think they got another Cliff Lee in Braxton Garrett. Boston thinks they outsmarted everyone and got the best player in the draft in Groome. Every team in the league can tell you that pitchers with 6.00 eras and zero idea where the ball is going in the lower Minor's will be their next ace. There is no basis to conclude the Brewers are on any track of serious success based on what we have now under our failed logic and process. If the Brewers don't reverse course and fix it in the next 2-3 drafts, we may stay down. See 1993-2005.


Neither Garrett, Groome, or Ray has appeared in a single professional game, yet you are ready to anoint 2 of them as top of rotation potential Hall of Famers and the third is already a spectacular bust. Seriously?

I get that they didn't take the guy you wanted. Okay, so Ray wasn't number 1 on your draft board. But he was on others. I guess I don't understand why you are so certain he's going to be terrible when he was rated very high on draft boards by virtually everyone who had a draft board out there.

All of these players have a long way to go before any of this matters and there are a lot of potential pitfalls for any draftee. I just don't understand how you can be so certain that, seemingly, Ray is crap and every other player the Brewers could have taken is going to be a multiple All-Star.


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Offline  Re: The 2017 MLB Draft Thread (Currently #7 pick (6/20))
#44

Posted: June 23, 2016, 3:21 PM Post
Posts: 982
To Tongue, spare me the lecture, kid. You're putting a ton of words in my mouth that were never uttered. That's my full response because I will not entertain strawman arguments. They are lazy, amateurish and lack any kind of intellectual depth. Until you discuss the actual points I am making accurately, figure out your own issues before you start lecturing people. Full stop.

Look guys, if you don't like my comments, all of which are valid opinions, then counter them intelligently without childish petulance, and I will respect you. I am here to discuss counter opinions brought with facts, data, past experiences, and one to one points and counter-points, etc. If you know my posting history, I am generally fairly positive. But, I like reasonable and fair discussion with scrutiny of the organization where warranted.

There was a poster who wanted me suspended because he didn't like criticisms. I'd have to look up who it was, but I am probably better off not remembering so as not to associate any individual poster, and not escalate this further. i am not here to ridicule anyone. Have your opinion, and I will have mine. I don't get the need to throw a temper tantrum every time a poster questions something.


Last edited by Austin Tatious on June 23, 2016, 3:46 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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Offline  Re: The 2017 MLB Draft Thread (Currently #7 pick (6/20))
#45

Posted: June 23, 2016, 3:22 PM Post
Posts: 982
And That said:
Austin Tatious said:
The young pitchers will vault high in the prospect rankings, higher than our guys.

Two points:

1) That's unknowable currently.

2) Prospect rankings are not the end game - fielding a talented big league team is. Whether Groome (whom 10 other teams besides the Brewers passed on - clearly they all can't be stupid?) or Garrett are ranked higher than Ray a year from now on Prospect List X is immaterial. I'm interested in what each of those players are doing 10 years from now. Ray has the talent to outperform both before even considering the high flameout rate of high school pitchers.

And I say both of those things as someone who would have preferred Garrett or Groome over Ray.



This is a fair point. I am telling you what other teams are saying about the guys they drafted based on their media.


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Offline  Re: The 2017 MLB Draft Thread (Currently #7 pick (6/20))
#46

Posted: June 23, 2016, 4:29 PM Post
Posts: 4152
I as much as anyone have been critical of the Brewers Drafting the past few years but even I have to admit they've been drafting more for upside lately. Coulter was an upside pick. So was Clark, who I believe many considered to be the best prep hitter in the draft. Harrison and Gatewood were definitely upside picks, as was Devin Williams. We've also made the safer picks too, the Jungmanns and Bradley's, the Rays. Counting the first two picks in our last five drafts we've picked 3 college position players, 4 high school position players 2 HS pitchers and one college pitcher. Go back one more year you have two more college pitchers. That seems fairly balanced to me with a lot of high ceiling low floor picks in there (Williams, Gatewood, Medeiros, Clark, Coulter). I'm not sure what policy you're rooting for Austin. I think the policy is fine. I think maybe the execution needs to improve.

Personally, this past draft I wanted Groome or Garrett, mainly because I wanted a pitcher. Ray is a good player whom almost all the scouts like. It's not a bad pick. In 2014 I wanted Grant Holmes. At the time our system was rather poor though and needed depth. Drafting Medeiros allowed us to draft Gatewood and Harrison, two picks I believe you said you liked. But if we took Holmes we would have missed out on one, if not both of them. Williams in 2013 was considered first round talent. Coulter hasn't worked out but there's still time. So again, I think our strategy or policy itself is fine. We just need to start hitting on more of them.

That said, opportunities to get TOR pitchers are rare. We can't pass on opportunities to get a Groome or a Garrett too often.


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Offline  Re: The 2017 MLB Draft Thread (Currently #7 pick (6/20))
#47

Posted: June 23, 2016, 4:39 PM Post
Posts: 982
Fair enough, Paul. Great response. We all want the same thing, which is a contender. That's what Stearns is trying to do. Let's hope we get there.

I like the players with upside and ceiling that we've taken outside the top 20. I am pulling for all of these guys.


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Offline  Re: The 2017 MLB Draft Thread (Currently #7 pick (6/20))
#48

Posted: June 23, 2016, 6:22 PM Post
Posts: 4212
Austin in regard to your feelings of kodi/monte/&jacob:

None of those picks were picks that had a quick ascend to the majors. Kodi can throw a slider that's like 10-8 with 8 being the 2nd clock next to the first. And then run a fastball tight at the corner of theplate. The ability is outstanding and the upside is Chris sale. Good pick but to control his talent will take time.

Monte Harrison was a future nebraska qb? Ahead of him had he refused to sign. He was splitting sports with his talent&athleticism. Changing gears to just baseball meant: time. He hit 5hrs in 1 week just a short bit ago. What he brings in athletic ability and harnesses to baseball could be special.

Jacob gatewood gave Milw a future power bat who just happens to k way to much and needs: time. To better pitch recognition, tie the power into games.

These guys will all be just 20 this season. Younger than Ray. They have improved whether you're not seeing it on their overall season stats. Take a week and the talent numbers that show is something. Now they gotta get to 2weeks a month. 3weeks a month and we have something. Any of the 3 put 4weeks in a month together and they're perennial all stars.

So think of them as gaining a day every month to reach 3week got something with them. Truth is, once they figure something out they will leap to a whole other level. Harrison reads as maybe hit that and is leaping up compared to his 1st months Harrison.


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Offline  Re: The 2017 MLB Draft Thread (Currently #7 pick (6/20))
#49

Posted: June 23, 2016, 10:15 PM Post
Posts: 299
Location: La Crosse
Austin Tatious said:
To Tongue, spare me the lecture, kid. You're putting a ton of words in my mouth that were never uttered. That's my full response because I will not entertain strawman arguments. They are lazy, amateurish and lack any kind of intellectual depth. Until you discuss the actual points I am making accurately, figure out your own issues before you start lecturing people. Full stop.

Look guys, if you don't like my comments, all of which are valid opinions, then counter them intelligently without childish petulance, and I will respect you. I am here to discuss counter opinions brought with facts, data, past experiences, and one to one points and counter-points, etc. If you know my posting history, I am generally fairly positive. But, I like reasonable and fair discussion with scrutiny of the organization where warranted.

There was a poster who wanted me suspended because he didn't like criticisms. I'd have to look up who it was, but I am probably better off not remembering so as not to associate any individual poster, and not escalate this further. i am not here to ridicule anyone. Have your opinion, and I will have mine. I don't get the need to throw a temper tantrum every time a poster questions something.


I was asking a serious question. You said that Groom and Garrett will be great and we won't be able to trade for them. You said Ray is another weak-armed LF (a comparison to Khris Davis, Clark). So you didn't say he'll be a colossal bust ( I overdid it there) but you clearly think the 2 pitchers will be significantly better than Ray. So why? Again, he was very highly rated by virtually everyone, why are you so down on him versus these other two?

And if you're interested in serious discussion, don't refer to people as 'kid' or suggest anyone is lazy, amateurish, or any of the other condescending comments you've made.


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Online  Re: The 2017 MLB Draft Thread (Currently #7 pick (6/20))
#50

Posted: June 24, 2016, 12:44 AM Post
Posts: 9786
So umm where have we been drafting fringy weak armed LFers? In the first round we drafted Trent Clark last year and Victor Roache back in 2012. They are also the only OFers we have drafted in the last decade first round. Clark could still stick in center and Ray definitely has at least an average arm and can at least play the corners.

I'm sorry but I don't see where we are constantly drafting weak armed LFers.


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Offline  Re: The 2017 MLB Draft Thread (Currently #7 pick (6/20))
#51

Posted: June 24, 2016, 10:38 AM Post
Posts: 383
I thought it was sort of an interesting opinion in the SI article linked by ZBTMP in the first posting of this thread that there are 5 college pitchers for next year who would have been picked in front of any college pitcher this year. That means potentially 5 college pitchers in next year's draft better than AJ Puk, who was picked 6th overall. Definitely seems like the initial strength of next year's draft class - and perhaps reiterates the weakness of this year's...


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Offline  Re: The 2017 MLB Draft Thread (Currently #7 pick (6/20))
#52

Posted: June 24, 2016, 9:12 PM Post
Posts: 973
Location: Ohio
heresrobin said:
I thought it was sort of an interesting opinion in the SI article linked by ZBTMP in the first posting of this thread that there are 5 college pitchers for next year who would have been picked in front of any college pitcher this year. That means potentially 5 college pitchers in next year's draft better than AJ Puk, who was picked 6th overall. Definitely seems like the initial strength of next year's draft class - and perhaps reiterates the weakness of this year's...


It's for this reason I would not be upset if the Brewers were unable to sign Ray. It would give the Crew the 5th pick in the 2017 draft.
While the Brewers would probably take a senior to ensure a signing, it would give the Crew a huge bonus pool for 2017.


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Offline  Re: The 2017 MLB Draft Thread (Currently #9 pick (27Jun))
#53

Posted: July 03, 2016, 10:50 PM Post
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Posts: 412
Man watching Seth Beer gets me excited. He's eligible in 2018 right? I'm all in on tanking for him.


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Offline  Re: The 2017 MLB Draft Thread (Still #9 pick (11Jul))
#54

Posted: July 11, 2016, 5:26 AM Post
Posts: 490
With a 5 days until the 15 July signing deadline, Braxton Garrett (1-7 MIA) and Jason Groome (1-12 BOS) remain unsigned. Garrett has Boras as an advisor and a Vandy commit to leverage. Miami hasn't signed its 3rd round pick either, signed away its 2nd round pick (Wei-Yin Chen) and traded away its competitive balance pick so it is light on pool money. If Garrett does not sign, the Brewers will drop to pick 10.


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Offline  Re: The 2017 MLB Draft Thread (Still #9 pick (11Jul))
#55

Posted: July 11, 2016, 9:46 PM Post
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ZBTMP said:
With a 5 days until the 15 July signing deadline, Braxton Garrett (1-7 MIA) and Jason Groome (1-12 BOS) remain unsigned. Garrett has Boras as an advisor and a Vandy commit to leverage. Miami hasn't signed its 3rd round pick either, signed away its 2nd round pick (Wei-Yin Chen) and traded away its competitive balance pick so it is light on pool money. If Garrett does not sign, the Brewers will drop to pick 10.

Boston has roughly $4.2M of their draft pool left to sign Groome. He reportedly wanted a minimum of $4M to sign, but even then, there was some reports saying he wanted 'Top 4' slot money - which could be $5M or more. It also could simply be Groome being upset about Boston picking him - he supposedly had a deal in place with another team picking lower in the 1st round (likely SD), and was set on going there. Perhaps that was a sweetheart deal - $5M or something like that - and he feels he can wait another year.

I bet he signs - wringing every penny out of Boston that he can. $4M now or $5M next year (assuming nothing goes wrong, which is a lot to assume). I'm betting he takes the money now.


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Offline  Re: The 2017 MLB Draft Thread (Still #9 pick (11Jul))
#56

Posted: July 11, 2016, 9:58 PM Post
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reillymcshane said:
ZBTMP said:
With a 5 days until the 15 July signing deadline, Braxton Garrett (1-7 MIA) and Jason Groome (1-12 BOS) remain unsigned. Garrett has Boras as an advisor and a Vandy commit to leverage. Miami hasn't signed its 3rd round pick either, signed away its 2nd round pick (Wei-Yin Chen) and traded away its competitive balance pick so it is light on pool money. If Garrett does not sign, the Brewers will drop to pick 10.

Boston has roughly $4.2M of their draft pool left to sign Groome. He reportedly wanted a minimum of $4M to sign, but even then, there was some reports saying he wanted 'Top 4' slot money - which could be $5M or more. It also could simply be Groome being upset about Boston picking him - he supposedly had a deal in place with another team picking lower in the 1st round (likely SD), and was set on going there. Perhaps that was a sweetheart deal - $5M or something like that - and he feels he can wait another year.

I bet he signs - wringing every penny out of Boston that he can. $4M now or $5M next year (assuming nothing goes wrong, which is a lot to assume). I'm betting he takes the money now.

Right after I posted this an article from Jon Heyman came out saying the Padres had an agreement with Groome to sign for $5M.

http://www.todaysknuckleball.com/al/bos ... fer-table/


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Offline  Re: The 2017 MLB Draft Thread (Still #9 pick (11Jul))
#57

Posted: July 12, 2016, 1:39 PM Post
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I really liked Groome the pitcher, but I've grown incredibly weary of players trying to cherry pick their destination, it's one of the reasons I'm not a Jose Fernandez fan... "I'll go to school if I'm not drafted by a FL team". Another example from the NFL would be John Elway who I never liked despite his immense talent. It's too bad that so many great talents are such douches.

I still would rather have Groome than Ray, but part of me is also glad that he's not around.

For the most part the Brewers have done a wonderful job bringing quality kids/young men into the organization of late. Our LaPorta types have been few and far between, even players like Lawrie who rubbed many here the wrong way on the social media side were very cordial to the fans in person. Granted I see most of them when they are first starting out in WI, but for the most part the players are good people, which makes it much easier to root for them.

"You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation."
- Plato
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something."
- Plato


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Offline  Re: The 2017 MLB Draft Thread (Still #9 pick (11Jul))
#58

Posted: July 12, 2016, 1:57 PM Post
Posts: 982
Just curious - what was LaPorta's issue? Was he arrogant toward fans?


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Offline  Re: The 2017 MLB Draft Thread (Still #9 pick (11Jul))
#59

Posted: July 12, 2016, 2:12 PM Post
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Buck Rogers, the GM of the Huntsville Stars at the time, dropped an excellent blog post laying it all out there. I'll see if I can dig it up.

***edit***

I didn't find the original blog, but I found my post.

"You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation."
- Plato
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something."
- Plato


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Offline  Re: The 2017 MLB Draft Thread (Still #9 pick (11Jul))
#60

Posted: July 12, 2016, 7:07 PM Post
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TheCrew07 said:
I really liked Groome the pitcher, but I've grown incredibly weary of players trying to cherry pick their destination, it's one of the reasons I'm not a Jose Fernandez fan... "I'll go to school if I'm not drafted by a FL team". Another example from the NFL would be John Elway who I never liked despite his immense talent. It's too bad that so many great talents are such douches.

I still would rather have Groome than Ray, but part of me is also glad that he's not around.

As noted before, Groome has some character issues that really made him a risk for $5M. It's tough to pass up his kind of talent, but that's what many teams did.


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