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6/22/03 Min(Rogers) vs Brewers(Kinney)

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Offline  6/22/03 Min(Rogers) vs Brewers(Kinney)
#1

Posted: June 22, 2003, 4:48 AM Post
Posts: 11
Game Time 1:05. Hopefully we can sweer the Twinkies


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Offline  6/22/03 Min(Rogers) vs Brewers(Kinney)
#2

Posted: June 22, 2003, 6:47 AM Post
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This game has exemplified what's wrong with the Brewers. Even though they have plenty of time to pull this out, here's what's gone on:

Eric Young gets picked off first and would have scored on the Podsednik triple. He's just not very good. 64th in NL OBP...kinda sub-par for a leadoff hitter.

Richie Sexson not running hard to first on a bobbled ball, would have scored subsequently. An aberration, but never enjoyable to see.

Matt Kinney, after surrendering five runs in five innings, batting for himself to leadoff the bottom of the fifth. They have a day off tomorrow and used the bullpen sparingly the last two nights. PINCH HIT FOR HIM. I mean, he's not pitching POORLY, but he also hasn't recorded a hit all year and doesn't help your cause when you're trailing by a couple runs.

Royce Clayton with two on and two out swinging at the first pitch and grounding out weakly. So who's the easier out? Royce Clayton or Enrique Cruz? Maybe I should create a poll.

Ah, but Jenkins with three hits, much good. Ooh, and runners at the corners with nobody out in the sixth.


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Offline  6/22/03 Min(Rogers) vs Brewers(Kinney)
#3

Posted: June 22, 2003, 9:55 AM Post
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Keith Ginter. That's all I'm going to say as long as Royce Clayton and Eric Young remain in the lineup every day... EY was supposed to sit out, 'cause he sits out every Sunday, but once again Yost decided to stick with the "veteran leadership" and ignore the "good hitter" he has on the bench.

It was a great series but I'm just getting sick of watching Clayton and Young... if I wanted to watch senior citizens play baseball, I'd head on over to the geriatric ward of a local hospital.

On a happier note, it seems like at least one trade is imminent. I've heard at least two radio personalities talk about how Melvin is looking to do something, whatever that something is, and I can only hope it is to ship EY to a contender where his leadership might have some value.

~Bill


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Offline  6/22/03 Min(Rogers) vs Brewers(Kinney)
#4

Posted: June 22, 2003, 10:01 AM Post
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One thing I found interesting was Daron Sutton's reminder of the pending handout of a "Brewers bobblehead" and that "if you know which player I'm talking about, it's still going to be handed out." Why can't they say Jeffrey Hammonds? Is there some sort of copyright infringement taboo that goes on if a broadcaster says the name of a former player who is going to be featured as a bobblehead? What, are they going to erase the name on the bobblehead itself and just say "Brewers" on the bottom, but hey it's got a striking resemblance to that dude they just cut, oh what's his name?

Sutton made such a big deal out of not using Hammonds' name when he was encouraging fans to attend the game and get their injury-prone bobble toy. Weird.


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Offline  6/22/03 Min(Rogers) vs Brewers(Kinney)
#5

Posted: June 22, 2003, 10:33 AM Post
Posts: 417
It was a great series but I'm just getting sick of watching Clayton and Young... if I wanted to watch senior citizens play baseball, I'd head on over to the geriatric ward of a local hospital.

While that's a tad harsh, we need to sit EY against good pitchers to get his numbers back to his career norms. Hard to convince anyone the 36 year-old still can play better than their guy when he's .250/.330 (unless that team is the Twins:) )

Also, does it really hurt anything to let Keith or even Cruz play SS once or twice a week. Maybe Yost hasn't seen the memo, but Clayton is a 650 OPS man, and will remain there until he gets even worse.

Still don't understand the idea of these two playing on a rebuilding club. Even Ginter/Hall would have a chance at having a future. Royce/Eric have none, nada, zilch. Very short-sighted.


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Offline  6/22/03 Min(Rogers) vs Brewers(Kinney)
#6

Posted: June 22, 2003, 11:42 AM Post
Posts: 3028
Al, how is letting Hall develop at AAA shortsighted? Also, I dislike EY as much as anyone, but thats mostly because he's the worst defensive 2B in baseball. he's still a better offensive player than Ginter, just look at the OPS. The team should continue to play Clayton, he's doing what hes done every year. Horrid in the 1st half, hot in the 2nd half.

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"88.6% of all statistics are made up right there on the spot" Todd Snider

-Posted by the fan formerly known as X ellence. David Stearns has brought me back..


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Offline  6/22/03 Min(Rogers) vs Brewers(Kinney)
#7

Posted: June 22, 2003, 11:45 AM Post
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Nice "veteran" middle infield. The offense would be decent if they were even close to average.

Assuming (and hoping) EY and Clayton are gone next year, who plays there? Ginter gets a shot at 2B, but what about SS? Hardy will probably spend most of the year in AAA, so do you sign someone for a year? Do you sign someone for a couple years and move him to 2B when Hardy is ready? Will Hall get a shot if he continues to have a strong second half?


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Offline  6/22/03 Min(Rogers) vs Brewers(Kinney)
#8

Posted: June 22, 2003, 12:11 PM Post
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Hall is a possibility at SS, but he would be an adventure defensively. He's on pace for 25 errors at AAA, which would be an improvement over the 42 he had last year, but thats more a result of him playing 2/3s of his games at 2B. Ginter could play 2B, but on a winning team he's best at what his role is now. The usual suspects will be available in free agency (Chris Gomez, Deivi Cruz, Bengi Gill, Rey Sanchez,Rey Ordonez, Jose Vizciano, Jose Hernandez), but unfortunately none are a major upgrade over Clayton. The Crew showed some interest in Alex Cora this past offseason, he could be a cheap stopgap if his trade pricetag isn't too high. If Desi Relaford is available, he'd interest me too. Rich Aurilia will be a FA and won't be back in San Fran because Neifi Perez has a multi year contract there. I have no idea what his pricetag will be , he's on the downside and has little range, but He still might trick a desperate team ( not the Crew) into a multi year deal.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"88.6% of all statistics are made up right there on the spot" Todd Snider

-Posted by the fan formerly known as X ellence. David Stearns has brought me back..


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Offline  6/22/03 Min(Rogers) vs Brewers(Kinney)
#9

Posted: June 22, 2003, 12:50 PM Post
Posts: 2
Since when can Ginter be considered a "quality bat"? What a load of garbage. He is hitting .254/.308/.287, he has shown nothing that makes me believe he need more PT.


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Offline  6/22/03 Min(Rogers) vs Brewers(Kinney)
#10

Posted: June 22, 2003, 1:49 PM Post
Posts: 168
Man, Id be one happy little Brewer if they grabbed Rey Rey Ordonez this offseason for a cheaper contract.

Just throwing him a...2-3 year deal worth 2 million per year...he would actually be an upgrade on defense over Clayton (and Clayton was tied for 1st in fielding percentage in the NL this weekend) and his bat (while pathetic to say) would be an improvement.

Ordonez is a young guy that plays exciting defense. I hate to say it, but this move would be kind of like when the Memphis Grizzlies traded the steady Mike Bibby for the flash in the pan Jason Williams. It was almost a move built for PR because with the team moving to Memphis, they needed a "flashy" point guard like J-Dub to try and luer people into games. I think having a "flashy" Rey Ordonez playing short as a bridge until JJ Hardy is ready would be a wise move. Hardy is supposed to be very solid on defense and his bat has only gotten better. This way, fans will witness a switch in shortstop from three guys with great defense, one who hit .100, one who hit .200, and the final one hitting .300.

Make any sense?

Im not just saying this because Rey happened to be one of my favorites, I think it might draw some more local interest. Not everyone can do magical things like Ordonez at shortstop.


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Offline  6/22/03 Min(Rogers) vs Brewers(Kinney)
#11

Posted: June 22, 2003, 2:37 PM Post
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Since when can Ginter be considered a "quality bat"? What a load of garbage. He is hitting .254/.308/.287, he has shown nothing that makes me believe he need more PT.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Don't get me started... Did you think Jason Giambi was a bad hitter after he struggled for his first 100 AB's this year? What evidence do you have that Ginter is a "load of garbage"? 100 at-bats in mostly pinch hitting situations? Boy, you're sure an awesome evaluator of talent.

Check out this thread if you haven't already and read more about Ginter's history. In a much larger sample size in the minor leagues, he was a very productive hitter.

He's only 27 and he has the potential to be a part of the next winning Brewers team. EY and Clayton do not. For that reason alone, he should be playing... if not everyday, at least a couple times a week.

~Bill


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Offline  6/22/03 Min(Rogers) vs Brewers(Kinney)
#12

Posted: June 23, 2003, 12:20 AM Post
Posts: 9297
I love the ignorant Ginter bashing that goes on here. 100 AB as a pinch hitter, and he's garbage?

Ignorant.


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Offline  6/22/03 Min(Rogers) vs Brewers(Kinney)
#13

Posted: June 23, 2003, 1:03 AM Post
Posts: 5951
One thing I found interesting was Daron Sutton's reminder of the pending handout of a "Brewers bobblehead" and that "if you know which player I'm talking about, it's still going to be handed out."

Haven't you heard? There's a new # 41 in town, and he's hitting 97-98 MPH on the gun.

It's Dan Kolb Bobblehead Doll Day!

Dan tans really well in the July sun :)

Image


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Offline  6/22/03 Min(Rogers) vs Brewers(Kinney)
#14

Posted: June 23, 2003, 3:53 AM Post
Posts: 2
Lets clear something up rluzinski, calling Ginter a "good stick" or "quality bat" is untruthful. I bring that to light and I am Ginter bashing? Fact of the matter is that he is far from being a major league hitter. I never called him garbage, I did say that calling him a "good stick" was garbage. The man currently totes a hefty .608 OPS. He in no way should play in place of EY, who needs to play so he can have some trade value come the deadline. As for replacing Clayton, I have no idea if Ginter can play short or not...I'll leave that to the guys who are supposed to make that decision.

And batman...no I didn't worry about Giambi, he had what is called a Major League track record. Ginter does not. Ginter can play all he wants AFTER EY has been traded. If that happens Ginter should get close to 400 AB's for the season and we should know more about him at that time.

And don't you think that if had shown anything up to this point of the year he'd be seeing more time on the field? Podsednik is the perfect example of such a scenerio.


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Offline  6/22/03 Min(Rogers) vs Brewers(Kinney)
#15

Posted: June 23, 2003, 4:13 AM Post
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He in no way should play in place of EY, who needs to play so he can have some trade value come the deadline.

Eric Orlando Young is 36 years old and has over 5100 AB in the major leagues. I still am absolutely amazed that another 100 AB is going to make any difference in what people think they will be getting with EY. The difference in prospects would be someone who tops out in A+ versus AA. Loretta was a more marketable quantity last year and some argue that we shouldn't even play one of the players we got in that trade. Then we should release the player we get for EY the day after he joins the team.



If that happens Ginter should get close to 400 AB's for the season and we should know more about him at that time.

I'll use the same argument that Yost made about Helms, he needs consistant play (500 AB) to really know what he can accomplish.

JosephC said:
Stearns probably had no interest in getting a C because the Brewers need a C. It makes much more sense to trade for 3B when it's not needed, and then move the other 3B to 2B, then trade for a 2B, but since the 3B is now at 2B, then the new 2B goes to SS


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Offline  6/22/03 Min(Rogers) vs Brewers(Kinney)
#16

Posted: June 23, 2003, 8:14 AM Post
Posts: 146
"Eric Orlando Young is 36 years old and has over 5100 AB in the major leagues. I still am absolutely amazed that another 100 AB is going to make any difference in what people think they will be getting with EY."

While I am among those who advocate removing EY in favor of Ginter, I think he does have to play well to help his trade value. He has 5100 AB, but not many of those have come as a 36 year old with declining skills. Contenders know that he could play when he was 31, but they have to know if he can still play now that he is 36.


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Offline  6/22/03 Min(Rogers) vs Brewers(Kinney)
#17

Posted: June 23, 2003, 11:48 AM Post
Posts: 163
Just throwing him a...2-3 year deal worth 2 million per year...he would actually be an upgrade on defense over Clayton (and Clayton was tied for 1st in fielding percentage in the NL this weekend) and his bat (while pathetic to say) would be an improvement.

Career numbers
Ordonez: .248/.291/.311, 602 OPS
Clayton: .256/.311/.371, 682 OPS

Not everyone can do magical things like Ordonez at shortstop.

Yeah, 2-3 years worth $2 million per for that is "magical".

Ordonez is a young guy that plays exciting defense.

He's 32 years old. Certainly not "young" at least in baseball standards. He's had eight years to not suck at the plate, and he has failed miserably each year.

You give a stopgap a 1-year deal worth about a million bucks...like a John Vander Wal, for example. If Hardy is gonna be ready in another year, why the need to waste a longer term deal? Especially on a player as crappy as Ordonez?

He may flash some serious leather, but if you think Rey Ordonez is gonna bring people into the park, well...I want some of whatever you are smokin'. I guarantee you can find a dozen AAAA-types that will play at a fraction of the cost and produce as good or better.


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Offline  6/22/03 Min(Rogers) vs Brewers(Kinney)
#18

Posted: June 23, 2003, 2:16 PM Post
Posts: 3028
Jason Nelson, check this out , we agree on something. Stopgaps are definately only to be given 1 year deals. $1 million is usually the number, but if its a little more I don't mind since its just a 1 year deal. Ordonez is not better than Clayton, there so similar its earie. Melvin has used stopgaps on 1 year deals very well in Texas, and i think we'll see more of that next year in Milwaukee.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"88.6% of all statistics are made up right there on the spot" Todd Snider

-Posted by the fan formerly known as X ellence. David Stearns has brought me back..


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Offline  6/22/03 Min(Rogers) vs Brewers(Kinney)
#19

Posted: June 24, 2003, 2:23 AM Post
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From the JS Online:
"Morneau hammered a 1-0 pitch from Mike DeJean off the center field scoreboard, a shot that traveled an estimated 460 feet, the longest ever hit at Miller Park."

They are either forgetting or discounting Sosa's blasts at the Home Run Derby last All-Star break.

That said, Morneau's shot was an absolute blast, and very impressive.


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Offline  6/22/03 Min(Rogers) vs Brewers(Kinney)
#20

Posted: June 24, 2003, 2:26 AM Post
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"if I wanted to watch senior citizens play baseball, I'd head on over to the geriatric ward of a local hospital."

Seriously, do they play baseball in the geriatric ward of your local hospital?


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